# Bullshit history that turned out to be true **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2021, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541 "2021-07-02T21:30:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/147 "2021-07-06T17:13:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It would not be implausible to store enough food on board to make the full journey, nor would it be implausible to trade with natives, or to gather wild fruit, to refresh onboard stores. Even Columbus and later explorers couldn’t store enough food on board to last for more than a few months. Presumably they deliberately avoided the complications of dealing with locals, or finding locals who had surplus supplies of food to sell. Don’t assume that there were inhabitants all along the coast. There would have been very long uninhabited stretches. Gathering wild fruit etc. - no. Not that plentiful, and local skills would be needed. European explorers were certainly not able to live on local natural resources on the coasts of Central and South America. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/148 "2021-07-06T17:23:42Z")
Plus, the voyage as described is coastal. It’s not like they were setting out to cross an ocean, like Columbus did. Mediterranean sailors were skilled coastal sailors, and just following the coast and keeping it on your right all the time, often within sight of land, would seem to me to be well within their technical capabilities. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/149 "2021-07-06T17:25:38Z")
Cicero wrote of wondrous mechanical devices made by Archimedes which modeled and predicted the motions of the sun, moon, and 5 planets. This description of what would amount to a clockwork orrery predating (and far exceeding in complexity) the earliest known clockworks by centuries was considered fantastical until the discovery that the Antikythera Mechanism was just such a clockwork device. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/150 "2021-07-06T17:44:04Z")
Survivor bias. We don’t know how many failed voyages there were. Later voyagers may have relied on information brought back by failed attempts; others may just never have returned. The sailing skills of the Phoenicians were universally attested to in the ancient world. But ultimately, it’s a curiosity, not a vital historical fact: what explorations they went on (and came back from), it doesn’t seem to have had much of an impact on the cultures they discovered. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/151 "2021-07-06T17:44:51Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > I don’t know if this is bullshit history or not, because regardless of the accuracy of observations of the sun, it’s a hell of a claim. It’s a rather startling claim for people with no experience of the Southern Hemisphere, but not all that amazing – anyone who knew that the Earth was round (e.g. any educated person in ancient Greece) and guessed that Africa was big enough to extend past the Equator could have predicted it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/152 "2021-07-06T17:59:32Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > Vikings came to the Americas before Columbus. Yep, that was considered to be pseudoscience , slightly better than aliens built the pyramids. And it was one of the reasons why the Kensington Runestone was considered a fraud. (The stone is still problematic and unsure status). > [@dorvann](#): > > A lot of people for years thought that Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were innocent of the espionage charges they were executed for in 1953 but declassified documents released after the fall of the Soviet Union showed they were definitely guilty. Yep, and there _were_ Commies in the State dept. McCarthy was wrong of course, he had no list, but our Govt and especially the UK govt had plenty of Soviet spies. > [@cmkeller](#): > > Many archaeologists and historians were convinced that the Biblical King David was completely fictional. The discovery of the [Tel Dan Stele](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Dan_stele) has convinced all but the most dedicated of Biblical minimalists at least that the man existed, even if they believe the Biblical narrative of his rise and reign to have been exaggerated or fabricated. Yes, although he was probably like 90% Legend and 10% history. Still, a real person. Most of the OT before King Omri or even Hezekiah is like that. But then look at how many legends have sprung up about George Washington in less than 3 centuries. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/153 "2021-07-06T18:00:16Z")
It could have been his brother, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/154 "2021-07-06T18:01:54Z")
> [@Grundig](#): > > History is written by the victors. The Athenian Thucydides was on the losing side but wrote the _History of the Peloponnesian War_, how the Civil War was taught and how it was thought of was dominated by Confederate apologist for decades, and plenty of American scholars have written about the Vietnam War. History is written by all sorts of people. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/155 "2021-07-06T18:08:00Z")
It was a draw, we lost no territory and the Brits stopped taking our seamen, even though that was a unwritten handshake deal. > [@Loach](#): > > I was always taught that the Battle of New Orleans was an American victory but it happened after the war was over. I don’t think that was ever hidden. No, not after the war was over, after the treaty was signed. In those days of non-instant communication, it was understood that everyone wouldn’t know about a treaty instantly, so “the war was over” when the news had a chance to get out. > [@Grundig](#): > > In popular US history, we won the war of 1812. Any objective historical analysis would conclude otherwise. And would have been considered “bullshit” No, we did not lose the war. We did not win it either. Undefeated. The Brits also gained a huge respect for our navy, which stood us well. Not to mention Jackson clobbering the Brits. We gained respect. > [@gdave](#): > > Then there’s the problem that Minoan Crete only resembles Plato’s Atlantis if you tilt your head just right, squint really hard, and engage in liberal hand-waving. Yeah, there never was a Atlantis, except maybe Athens- the story was a parable. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/156 "2021-07-06T18:10:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It could have been his brother, of course. I’ve heard that argued as well. I lack the any expertise on the lives of Jefferson, his siblings, or Sally Hemings to determine the how likely it is that Jefferson isn’t the father. ---
**Author:** ![dorvann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@dorvann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorvann)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/157 "2021-07-06T18:13:32Z")
I appreciate all the responses about my post in the Thera Eruption and Atlantis. A few points I would like to make: 1. My understanding about the Thera eruption is that there were legends and stories about **for centuries** but it was not **absolutely confirmed** about it happening until modern times. 2. And as far the Atlantis-Minoan civilization connections I know Plato’s work on subject was basically a **fictional** allegory/parable to promote his philosophical views. I said the eruption of Thera and subsequent collapse of the Minoan civilization is believed to **inspired** Plato when he described the **destruction** of Atlantis–I did **not** say that Plato’s work created a one to one description of the Minoan civilization with Atlantis. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/158 "2021-07-06T18:20:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > the Brits stopped taking our seamen, even though that was a unwritten handshake deal. The Brits didn’t _need_ more seamen after the end of the Napoleonic Wars. They were busy discharging numbers of them, and decommissioning ships. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/159 "2021-07-06T18:23:57Z")
It would be really hard, as Sally was pregnant when Jefferson and Sally left France, and Jefferson’s relatives were not within 1000 miles. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/160 "2021-07-06T18:30:08Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But then look at how many legends have sprung up about George Washington in less than 3 centuries. Hence the _George Washington Principle_ - “It’s easy to tell the truth when you’re the one holding the axe.” > [@JRDelirious](#): > > The “feminine” bit may have even been a way of saying he was too refined or sensitive for so crude an assertion of “manly” power as keeping a black slave mistress. Which is still grasping at straws and reveals how people of that time viewed what was the worst possible accusation (with for sure an element of claiming “But he was one of the _good_ slaveowners!”). Sally (Sarah) was 3/4 white apparently - her mother was the child of an African slave and a white sea captain. He father was Jefferson’s father-in-law. (So she was Tom’s wife’s half-sister). Apparently many men of that era were not “refined” or “sensitive”. I learned the War of 1812 was a futile draw. You blew up Toronto, we burned down Washington. On the plus side, that gave you the “White House” (Story goes the scorch marks were simply whitewashed over after that) But the USA didn’t get Canada, and the Brits didn’t retrieve their lost colonies, and Britain stopped treating US ships as sources for manpower. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/161 "2021-07-06T18:30:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > the Kensington Runestone was considered a fraud. (The stone is still problematic and unsure status). No, the Kensington Runestone is 100% a fraud. There’s nothing problematic or unsure about its status. The weathering patterns make no sense for a millennia-old inscription. The runic forms and even the _grammar_ are consistent with 19th Century knowledge of runes, not c. 1000 AD Norse. _No_ other similar “runestones” have _ever_ been found, in Scandinavia or elsewhere. There is known to have been a copy of a book on runes in a nearby library that had all the information needed to create the inscription. Not too mention the _extremely_ convenient “coincidence” that the one and only such “runestone” ever found just happened to turn up in an area with a large population of _19th Century_ Scandinavian immigrants, by a farmer with recent Scandinavian ancestry, just in time for the Columbian Exposition. The role of the farmer who claimed to have found it is still unsure. He might have been in on it, or a convenient dupe. The motives of the hoaxers aren’t entirely certain, but it sure looks a lot like a “pious fraud.” Either way, the Kensington Runestone is bullshit history. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/162 "2021-07-06T18:37:10Z")
Sally was also apparently a dead ringer for Jefferson’s dead wife. People commented on it at the time. She would have been a lot younger than his wife. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/163 "2021-07-06T18:39:08Z")
> [@dorvann](#): > > My understanding about the Thera eruption is that there were legends and stories about **for centuries** but it was not **absolutely confirmed** about it happening until modern times. As I stated upthread, that’s not my understanding, but I am definitely not a subject matter expert, and I could _very_ easily be completely wrong. Do you have any sources for this? I’m not trying to be contentious, I’m genuinely curious about learning more about this. > [@dorvann](#): > > And as far the Atlantis-Minoan civilization connections I know Plato’s work on subject was basically a **fictional** allegory/parable to promote his philosophical views. I said the eruption of Thera and subsequent collapse of the Minoan civilization is believed to **inspired** Plato when he described the **destruction** of Atlantis–I did **not** say that Plato’s work created a one to one description of the Minoan civilization with Atlantis. Thera erupted c. 1600 BCE. Plato live _1200_ years later. It’s certainly not impossible that there was some lingering folk-historical memory of Thera’s eruption that served as an inspiration for Plato’s account of the destruction of Atlantis. But there doesn’t actually seem to be any particular reason to think that the Thera eruption specifically was any particular inspiration for Plato. There were any numbers of volcanos, subsidences, catastrophic floods, and other disasters in the region over the previous millennium that could have inspired Plato. Again, though, I’m not a subject matter expert, and I could be wrong. What reason is there to think that Thera inspired elements of the “Timaeus” and “Critias” dialogues? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/164 "2021-07-06T18:44:47Z")
> [@dorvann](#): > > A lot of people for years thought that Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were innocent of the espionage charges they were executed for in 1953 but declassified documents released after the fall of the Soviet Union showed they were definitely guilty. But by the same token declassification of the Venona also makes the death sentence seem unwarranted, as they weren’t “THE atomic spies” that gave the Russians the A-bomb, they were a small cog in a much larger machine and were only peripherally involved in the process of the soviets getting details of the Manhattan Project (though that doesn’t make them innocent). ---
**Author:** ![dorvann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@dorvann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorvann)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/165 "2021-07-06T18:50:14Z")
OK regarding the Thera eruption it probably **does not** qualify for this thread because I don’t think anyone ever thought it **did not** happen. It is more along the lines of a historical event that was believed happened that wasn’t **100% confirmed** until modern times when scientists were able to confirm it from ice cores, tree ring dating and ash deposits around the world. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/167 "2021-07-06T19:11:09Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Sally was also apparently a dead ringer for Jefferson’s dead wife. People commented on it at the time. She would have been a lot younger than his wife. If I recall what I read - she was 15 or 16 when she was supposed to be “nanny” for Jefferson’s slightly younger daughter on their trip to Europe. Other household complained she was too ditsy to actually do that job. But, Jefferson kept her around and so he got it on with her in France when she was about 16. I suspect the resemblance and her youth did not impede the relationship. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541.md?page=9)