# Bullshit (Teaching Skepticism in Schools) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 25, 2017, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689 "2017-02-25T02:45:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689/1 "2017-02-25T02:45:07Z")
An article recently [appeared on Sci-Am](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-nasa-spen/) that disrobed one of the more popular internet memes as completely wrong. I mean literally no part of the original meme is at all correct. And, sadly, though I have a healthy skeptic-tendon, I must admit that I swallowed it. Which got me to thinking (again), should our schools teach bullshit? That is, not disseminate invalid information, but require courses in recognizing nonsense. I am thinking several years, from about grades 5 to 8 or 9, of studying misinformation and fiction, so that young people could become adept at detecting hyperbole and deception. Seems like it would be a good thing. But, what about Ronco and Ginsu Knives and QVC? Would a populace well-armed in skepticism lead to a weaker economy? Would the answer for that be to restore shop and home ec curricula, which I have heard has been sorely neglected? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689/2 "2017-02-25T02:53:47Z")
Interesting. I’d heard the meme, but hadn’t bothered to investigate it one way or the other. Nevertheless, color me completely unsurprised that it’s false. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689/3 "2017-02-25T03:10:15Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > . . . should our schools teach bullshit? Most states have curricula that emphasize critical thinking skills already. The problem is that people get out of school and then start watching bullshit-fueled TV all day, and they lose their critical thinking skills (if they ever had them). That’s why Trump won: he just translated TV bullshit to political bullshit, and there were just barely enough suckers in just the right states to give him the electoral vote. Basically, suckers believe Trump for the same reason they believe the NASA-pen myth: they _want_ to think it’s true because it validates them in some way, and they’re too lazy to find the real truth on their own, when the bullshit gets so easily served to them as they sit on their lazy asses in front of the TV (or Facebook). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689/4 "2017-02-25T03:23:55Z")
“Would a populace well-armed in skepticism lead to a weaker economy?” Well, you can’t get them all. But as they say also, if you think education is costly try ignorance. But yeah, regarding the subject, besides dabbling on science fiction, my educational background is also pulling me to someday develop a course about finding, identifying bull, and then finding good sources of information. The good news is that a lot of good ideas and sources for critical thinking are available, like Oxford University’s Critical Reasoning for Beginners > **[Critical Reasoning for Beginners](https://podcasts.ox.ac.uk/series/critical-reasoning-beginners)** > > Are you confident you can reason clearly? Are you able to convince others of your point of view? Are you able to give plausible reasons for believing what you believe? Do you sometimes read arguments in the newspapers, hear them on the television, or... And one guy I also like to check is science writer Peter Hadfield, ACA potholer54 on the internet: > **[potholer54](https://www.youtube.com/user/potholer54/videos)** > > The purpose of this channel is to correct some of the false scientific information that is now prevalent on the internet, and explain in simple terms the conclusions of real scientific research. I am a former science journalist and geologist (see the... His video on [Why the media screw up science Part 1: Sources](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdnZ1l5TxJk) has a lot of good ideas on how to deal with cyber bull and has a crucial point: > [@](#): > > Ultimately, the accuracy of what we believe \*\*is our responsibility \*\ ***because where we source our information is entirely up to us.** We can check the accuracy of stories ourselves and use reliable sources or we can believe the Cliff Clavins of this world. This is very important, and it deals to what **guizot** was referring to, it is not only the basics on critical thinking that need to be taught, there is a need to teach also that we are not only what we eat, but we are also what we use as our sources of information. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689/5 "2017-02-25T05:06:20Z")
We’ve had a Ginsu in my family for 35 years. It’s an amazing knife. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689/6 "2017-02-25T05:15:36Z")
The problem is that most people forget everything they learn in school. I know there is a meme going around that if only we educated people properly, they wouldn’t do stupid things like vote for Trump, but that’s not the way it works in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689/7 "2017-02-25T05:18:17Z")
Hunh, my housemate and I were just discussing this tonight, with the conclusion that some sort of basic course on critical thinking would be of great use (also one on the elements of investment and retirement savings). So, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689/8 "2017-02-25T05:45:52Z")
My thinking is along the lines of more immersive than “a course”. Like, years of it, so that it becomes reflexive rather than something like algebra that you struggle to pull up “_how do I do this again_?” But then, I view ideal education as teaching kids how to learn, rather than shoving information into their heads. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689/9 "2017-02-25T13:00:59Z")
A biology professor told us that some of what he was teaching us would likely one day be shown to be incorrect. He stressed he wanted to teach us _how_ rather than _what_ to think. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689/10 "2017-02-25T13:21:21Z")
The whole zero-g pen story has been debunked for a long time. It’s probably symptomatic of something that the OP is only just now hearing of the debunking. Of what, though, I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689/11 "2017-02-25T13:27:43Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Most states have curricula that emphasize critical thinking skills already. Doesn’t matter. They’ll copy/paste wikipedia anyway. You could give them an assignment on critical thinking and not taking everything at face value (much less shit you find on the internet) and it would begin : “ **Critical thinking** was described by Richard Paul as a movement in two waves (1994)” ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689/12 "2017-02-25T13:37:12Z")
While the NASA pen meme is fairly minor in the grand scheme of bullshit, it touches on a couple of major myth narratives that have deep underpinning: [ul] [li]America is number one! Woo Hoo! We can’t let those Russkies beat us![/li][li]Our government is always in every way at all times stupid and wasteful.[/li][/ul] So, how would you teach around the fact that in learning history, and in our day-to-day lives, we are bombarded with myth narratives 24/7? Do we start by telling children in school that their parents lied to them about Santa Claus (do we bring up religion?)? So, “critical thinking” as a skill can only go so far. Who do we deem as the gatekeepers to truth and myth (see what’s happening with our current President)? A puzzle. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689/13 "2017-02-25T16:34:59Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Most states have curricula that emphasize critical thinking skills already. Do said curricula actually teach critical thinking skills and focus on how to recognize bullshit, or are you citing courses that in general should demand critical thinking skills? We generate a lot of graduates who succeed in various endeavors, but who readily buy into woo and politically-based nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689/14 "2017-02-25T17:07:41Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > An article recently [appeared on Sci-Am](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-nasa-spen/) that disrobed one of the more popular internet memes as completely wrong. I mean literally no part of the original meme is at all correct. And, sadly, though I have a healthy skeptic-tendon, I must admit that I swallowed it. > > Which got me to thinking (again), should our schools teach bullshit? That is, not disseminate invalid information, but require courses in recognizing nonsense. I am thinking several years, from about grades 5 to 8 or 9, of studying misinformation and fiction, so that young people could become adept at detecting hyperbole and deception. > > Seems like it would be a good thing. But, what about Ronco and Ginsu Knives and QVC? Would a populace well-armed in skepticism lead to a weaker economy? Would the answer for that be to restore shop and home ec curricula, which I have heard has been sorely neglected? Just to address the end question (assuming it’s not entirely sarcastic). No. When people know how to buy good products and services, and avoid bad ones, since they still need or want those things, they will still spend money to get them, and the economy will be fine. In other words, there is zero reason to WANT people to be lousy at observation and reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689/15 "2017-02-25T17:52:50Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Seems like it would be a good thing. But, what about Ronco and Ginsu Knives and QVC? I’ve owned and used a set of Ginsu knives for about 20 years now. They’re not bullshit, they have performed as advertised. Just wanted to set the record straight. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689/16 "2017-02-25T18:10:53Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Which got me to thinking (again), should our schools teach bullshit? Huh. I figured 90% of the shit they foisted on me in High School was Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689/17 "2017-02-25T18:18:30Z")
When teachers teach BS it causes long term damage. People seem to think: “If a teacher said it, it must be true!” I, like many others my age, was told by my teacher, that the water in the toilet spins the way that it does because we are on the northern hemisphere (coriolis effect). Any long time fan of the Dope can tell you this simply isn’t true. This subject came up with me and some bar mates. And even though I tried to explain the science to them why this isn’t true, they wouldn’t believe me. Their main counter point being: “That’s what their teachers taught them.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689/18 "2017-02-25T19:33:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The whole zero-g pen story has been debunked for a long time. It’s probably symptomatic of something that the OP is only just now hearing of the debunking. Of what, though, I’m not sure. Seconded - I’ve been aware of this one for years, and have shown it to a number of people when the subject came up. But I don’t see how an increase in critical thinking by the populace would keep this sort of thing from being believed. I’ve seen versions of the story that are completely plausible and sound reasonable. It just so happens that it was historically false - I don’t see how one would come to that conclusion through inferences allowed by critical thinking. And frankly, there’s not a lot of reason for a person outside the aerospace industry to even suspect the story was false (apart from the “America - fuck yeah!” aggrandizement). I’m a spaceflight geek, so I know that having little bits of pencil tip floating around inside a capsule is a bad idea. But without that background I might not have thought to investigate this story further when I first encountered it. ---
**Author:** ![yesanything](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@yesanything](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yesanything)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689/19 "2017-02-25T20:29:23Z")
I think one of the biggest obstacles to teaching/improving Critical Thinking is opposition from organized religion. I remember enjoying the movie “Inherit the Wind” decades and decades ago and assumed these matters were settled. **WRONG** ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689/20 "2017-02-25T23:05:07Z")
A high-school course in _Recognizing Bullshit_ would be of immense value, both to individuals and to society at large. I’d suggest that the curriculum consist of reading and discussing these two books: [ul] [li]_Mistakes Were Made (but Not by Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts_, by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson, 2009 or 2015 editions[/li][li]_Predictably Irrational: The Hidden Forces that Shape Our Decisions_, by Dan Ariely, 2010[/li][/ul] I have no connection whatsoever with any of these three authors; I’m suggesting their books because the books are compulsively readable (always a plus with teenagers) and well-vetted for accuracy and relevance. Using these two books would prevent the inevitable arguments over the content of the course-curriculum—arguments that would delay implementation of such a course for, possibly, years. There could always be a “Recognizing Bullshit II” to cover additional topics. But these two books are a quick-read introduction to the facts about the human mind that so often lead us to believe stupid stuff (such as the pen story). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-teaching-skepticism-in-schools/780689.md?page=2)