# Bully bosses may become illegal in New York **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 26, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093 "2010-07-26T20:38:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093/1 "2010-07-26T20:38:39Z")
I did a search and I don’t think anyone has brought up this topic. On Headline News today they mentioned how New York is considering a bill making it illegal for bosses to bully their employees. I couldn’t find anything on CNN’s Web site, but I found [this](http://moneywatch.bnet.com/economic-news/blog/daily-money/is-your-boss-a-bully-that-could-soon-become-illegal/1061/) and [this](http://www.kltv.com/Global/story.asp?S=12859833) on-line. Do you think this is a good or bad idea. I know a few of you will think it’s bad, and I bet I can even guess who, but as for me I think it’s great. Unless you’re a highly valuable employee then usually your bosses hold all the cards, have all the power, and generally can treat you any way they like. I hope this passes and I hope more states adopt such laws. Yeah it’ll open the doors to frivolous lawsuits, but it will also allow some employees (those who can prove it) protection from abusive bosses. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093/2 "2010-07-26T21:10:08Z")
I wanna see how they’re going to define ‘bully boss’. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093/3 "2010-07-26T23:15:26Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > I wanna see how they’re going to define ‘bully boss’. > [@KLTV.com](#): > > The New York legislation defines the bullying boss as “someone who is motivated by malice and who is destructive and injurious.” That’s one bad boss. That doesn’t include your workload increasing because of cutbacks or even a pay-cut. The boss has to be downright abusive. > [@Time.com](#): > > Bullying bosses scream, often with the goal of humiliating. They write up false evaluations to put good workers’ jobs at risk. > [@Digital Journal](#): > > Called the Healthy Workplace Bill, this could help employees–if they can show proof–that they were verbally assaulted, subjected to lost work or other deemed unhealthy behavior in the workplace and in turn sue their boss and receive medical expenses, lost wages, punitive damages and compensation for emotional distress. And some searching turned out what I think is the bill. It’s a pain in the butt to read, but if you want to , [Here it is](http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld=&bn=A05414&Summary=Y&Text=Y) There’s a lot more, but here’s some text from the last link > [@](#): > > ABUSIVE CONDUCT" MEANS CONDUCT, WITH MALICE, TAKEN AGAINST AN > 36 EMPLOYEE BY AN EMPLOYER OR ANOTHER EMPLOYEE IN THE WORKPLACE, THAT A > 37 REASONABLE PERSON WOULD FIND TO BE HOSTILE, OFFENSIVE AND UNRELATED TO > 38 THE EMPLOYER’S LEGITIMATE BUSINESS INTERESTS. IN CONSIDERING WHETHER > 39 SUCH CONDUCT IS OCCURRING, THE TRIER OF FACT SHOULD WEIGH THE SEVERITY, > 40 NATURE AND FREQUENCY OF THE CONDUCT. ABUSIVE CONDUCT SHALL INCLUDE, BUT > 41 NOT BE LIMITED TO, REPEATED INFLICTION OF VERBAL ABUSE, SUCH AS THE USE > 42 OF DEROGATORY REMARKS, INSULTS AND EPITHETS; VERBAL OR PHYSICAL CONDUCT > 43 THAT A REASONABLE PERSON WOULD FIND THREATENING, INTIMIDATING OR HUMILI- > 44 ATING; OR THE GRATUITOUS SABOTAGE OR UNDERMINING OF AN EMPLOYEE’S WORK > 45 PERFORMANCE. A SINGLE ACT SHALL NOT CONSTITUTE ABUSIVE CONDUCT, UNLESS > 46 THE TRIER OF FACT FINDS SUCH ACT TO BE ESPECIALLY SEVERE OR EGREGIOUS. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093/4 "2010-07-27T17:10:04Z")
What’s Gordon Ramsay going to do now? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093/5 "2010-07-27T17:20:24Z")
Good God, that law will be a can of worms. It’s open to any interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093/6 "2010-07-27T17:38:58Z")
Meh. I think it’s reasonably well written. I just don’t see why we need a law like this for bosses if we don’t need one for random people in the street, or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093/7 "2010-07-27T17:58:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Meh. I think it’s reasonably well written. I just don’t see why we need a law like this for bosses if we don’t need one for random people in the street, or whatever. If a random guy in the street yells at you then you have options. If your boss yells at you and you do anything about it you might get punished or fired. ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093/8 "2010-07-27T18:16:43Z")
Your boss yelled at you and hurt your feelings - so now you want a law that gives you somebody you can run to and tattle so you can make him feel bad too? Ridiculous! Absolutely ridiculous! In a free market we can choose where we want to work. In my case, if a boss treated me unfairly I’d first discuss my options with HR. If I wasn’t satisfied with the outcome, I’d simply find a job elsewhere that is a better match for my skills and personality. There is no need whatsoever to go outside of the company to try to get my way. Simply stated, I’m not so selfish to think a disagreement gives me the right to sue somebody. My current company has a department that trades commodities. There are days where they yell and scream and shout at each other, and anybody else who walks in the room. If anybody came here for the first time on one of those days they would be shocked at the new words they might learn! But they get so worked up because that’s what makes them feel the energy, that’s what gets them in the game. They thrive on pressure, they love it and the seek it out in their jobs. High pressure jobs are the only jobs they really enjoy and can excel at. Frankly - I love those guys - when they get passionate about their job, I get passionate about it as well. I’ll take a job with a boss who blows his lid occassionally any day over a boss who just doesn’t care. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093/9 "2010-07-27T18:33:21Z")
I was once a low-level manager of a few people (thank Og, not any more). I had one employee who went to HR because of this conversation: Me: (after an absence of an hour or two in meetings, etc., returns to my office) Her: (following me into my office) Did you see my email? (Note: this was way before smart phones or any similar technology, so there is no freaking way I could have seen her email) Me: Give me a nano-second here. Her: (look of death at me, followed by removing herself from my office). This becamse a big megillah where I had to apologize for my tone, which was apparently obnoxious. I can just imagine what this employee would have done with this law behind her. No thanks. The thing is, there were no witnesses, and she greatly exaggerated any possible offense I might have committed. I foresee this becoming like sexual harrassment, where even the merest hint of a whisper of a complaint is enough to, at a minimum, cause the manager to have to go through punitive re-training to protect the company’s ass. Again, no thanks. Roddy p.s. I sense that I still have a lot of strong feelings about an incident that happened several years go, with an employee who is no longer here. She really managed to get under my skin, which I believe was her greatest happiness. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093/10 "2010-07-27T18:39:25Z")
What was her e-mail about? Also, sexual harassment may have been handled where you describe in many places, but in many others it basically gets ignored unless 20 women all come forward to complain about the same guy. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093/11 "2010-07-27T18:57:36Z")
> [@Frazzled](#): > > Your boss yelled at you and hurt your feelings - so now you want a law that gives you somebody you can run to and tattle so you can make him feel bad too? > > Ridiculous! Absolutely ridiculous! I think this comes from a belief that anyone should be able to work wherever they want. In California, smoking is prohibited in bars. The health risks are obvious, but instead of the staff choosing to work elswhere, the bars were forced to be smoke free. (I find it hard to believe that a bartender was unaware that they might be exposed to cigerette smoke.) So the right of the employees to work in that bar trumped that of the buisness owner [boss]. This law might seem to be a natural extension of that mindset. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093/12 "2010-07-27T19:05:04Z")
> [@Frazzled](#): > > I’ll take a job with a boss who blows his lid occassionally any day over a boss who just doesn’t care. Why do you think that those are the only two options available? ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093/13 "2010-07-27T19:07:09Z")
> [@Frazzled](#): > > Your boss yelled at you and hurt your feelings - so now you want a law that gives you somebody you can run to and tattle so you can make him feel bad too? More like your boss used his or her position of authority to treat you like shit, and there might not be anything you can do about it. > [@](#): > > Ridiculous! Absolutely ridiculous! > > In a free market we can choose where we want to work. Tell that to the millions of us who can’t find a job. People are free to look for work, but that doesn’t mean companies have to hire us. > [@](#): > > In my case, if a boss treated me unfairly I’d first discuss my options with HR. If I wasn’t satisfied with the outcome, I’d simply find a job elsewhere that is a better match for my skills and personality. And you might be highly skilled enough that you can just quit your job and get another. It’s not that easy, or even possible, for many of us. > [@](#): > > There is no need whatsoever to go outside of the company to try to get my way. Simply stated, I’m not so selfish to think a disagreement gives me the right to sue somebody. This is more than just a disagreement. This is about abusive behavior or falsifying reviews or other activities that go beyond simple disagreements. > [@](#): > > My current company has a department that trades commodities. There are days where they yell and scream and shout at each other, and anybody else who walks in the room. If anybody came here for the first time on one of those days they would be shocked at the new words they might learn! But they get so worked up because that’s what makes them feel the energy, that’s what gets them in the game. They thrive on pressure, they love it and the seek it out in their jobs. High pressure jobs are the only jobs they really enjoy and can excel at. Frankly - I love those guys - when they get passionate about their job, I get passionate about it as well. I’ll take a job with a boss who blows his lid occassionally any day over a boss who just doesn’t care. People who enjoy getting screamed at won’t be suing anybody. So if you and all your coworkers are happy, there shouldn’t be anything to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093/14 "2010-07-27T19:07:20Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I think this comes from a belief that anyone should be able to work wherever they want. Do you have anything to back that opinion up, or is that just “from your gut”? > [@mlees](#): > > In California, smoking is prohibited in bars. The health risks are obvious, but instead of the staff choosing to work elswhere, the bars were forced to be smoke free. (I find it hard to believe that a bartender was unaware that they might be exposed to cigerette smoke.) So the right of the employees to work in that bar trumped that of the buisness owner [boss]. > > This law might seem to be a natural extension of that mindset. A complete mischaracterization of the passage of the smoking ban in California, AFAICT. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093/15 "2010-07-27T19:09:18Z")
[QUOTE=Snowboarder Bo] Do you have anything to back that opinion up, or is that just “from your gut”? [/quote] Gut. > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > A complete mischaracterization of the passage of the smoking ban in California, AFAICT. I’m willing to listen. Err.. read. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093/16 "2010-07-27T19:47:50Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > [QUOTE=Snowboarder Bo] > Do you have anything to back that opinion up, or is that just “from your gut”? Gut. [/QUOTE] Why do you think there is “a belief that anyone should be able to work wherever they want”? Who do you think holds this belief? Why do you think that? Have you ever heard them talking about, making speeches about, or pushing this belief? Where and when? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093/17 "2010-07-27T20:29:29Z")
[QUOTE=Snowboarder Bo] Why do you think there is “a belief that anyone should be able to work wherever they want”? [/quote] It is only a hunch, used as a tool to help myself try to understand the roots of someones motivation for some of these legislative initiatives. > [@](#): > > Who do you think holds this belief? I believe many (but not all) working class folks do. When labor laws get pushed, it’s usually unions or, at least, non-executive level folks seeking the changes. > [@](#): > > Why do you think that? Why do I think that folks feel they have a “right to work wherever they please”? Because it seems to explain some of the arguments I see (even in this thread) being made to transfer power from the employer/buisness owner to the employee. I don’t disagree with negotiating or legislating workplace safety and anti-discrimination viewpoints, but I also “feel with my gut” that the same arguments can be made for anything a worker desires. Not enough snack machines in your area? Not enough break time? Don’t like the color of the paint in your cubical farm? It seems to me that the above legislation might be trying to outlaw assholes. There is going to be a lot of subjective anectdotes injected into this debate, upon which the proposed leglislation is to be based. When a law is vague or subjective, your going to see it abused by one side or other. Good luck trying to outlaw employer grumpyness or asshole-ism. > [@](#): > > Have you ever heard them talking about, making speeches about, or pushing this belief? Yes, I have seen these various sentiments (that is, those that may be classified as worker/working condition concerns), both pro and con on, whatever the labor issues of the day may be, expressed in newspaper editorials, on message boards such as this, and talking with my co-workers. I have never been a member of a Union, so I haven’t attended Union meetings. Specifically, the smoking/nonsmoking debate I mentioned in my previous post included some of both “They shouldn’t make me work in a nonsafe enviornment.” and “Who’s forcing you to work there?” viewpoints expressed in the venues I mentioned in the preceding paragraph. > [@](#): > > Where and when? You really want or need the dates? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093/18 "2010-07-27T22:13:10Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I think this comes from a belief that anyone should be able to work wherever they want. That or it stems from the belief that people deserve to be treated with a modicum of respect, even if they’re drones. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093/19 "2010-07-27T23:28:17Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > > [@mlees](#): > > > > I think this comes from a belief that anyone should be able to work wherever they want. > > That or it stems from the belief that people deserve to be treated with a modicum of respect, even if they’re drones. So, is it now the governments job to enforce respect? If so, how far does it go? Do fans at baseball games have to stop yelling insults at the opposing players? How about the people who cut in line at stores, certainly that is a sign of disrespect? How should the government deal with that? Arrest the folks? This is just another instance of the government stepping in where they shouldn’t be. I have no problems with laws against discrimination. This however seems to so open to abuse that it will (as I am sure the people who wrote the bill know) tie the hands of management and give employees a huge power advantage. For example: “GRATUITOUS SABOTAGE OR UNDERMINING OF AN EMPLOYEE’S WORK PERFORMANCE”. I can see it now. Employee gets bad review. Employee sues company because the boss gave them too much work. That would undermine their performance and therefore the employee shouldn’t be liable, the boss should. Are there crappy, mean, evil bosses out there? Sure are. Are there a lot? Don’t know but I don’t think this is that big of a problem\*. Is there a better way to deal with it? Yep, it is called the human resources department for most companies. Slee \*I had a horrid boss. The guy would run around in a call center screaming 'Get ‘em off the phones’ at the top of his lungs. The customers heard this. They didn’t like it. That boss didn’t last long. I know that bad bosses exist but this is just silly. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093/20 "2010-07-27T23:51:17Z")
But go and try to find another job, with exactly the same benefits, time off and seniority. So it’s not a free market. You shouldn’t have to put up with garbage. Too many bosses are like this. I recall one boss that yelled at me and I said “Barry I can yell JUST AS LOUD.” He never did it again, but everyone came up to me and said “You’re lucky if he don’t fire you.” I guess I was, but I didn’t care if he did. I don’t have a wife and kids. Others do have that, they have to take it. Barry was completely out of line. But this is just an extension of “creating a hostile working environment.” And since it’s wide open to opinions it won’t do much in the long run. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-bosses-may-become-illegal-in-new-york/548093.md?page=2)