# Bully learns what it's like on the other side **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 15, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-learns-what-its-like-on-the-other-side/574829 "2011-03-15T20:35:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Dinaroozie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Dinaroozie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinaroozie)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-learns-what-its-like-on-the-other-side/574829/101 "2011-03-23T03:05:41Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > No but my point is more that body slamming the Little Shit was approximately the equivalent of grabbing him and punching him. In other words, where Casey is now is about where Andrew was after the first incident. Giving Casey unqualified fame and suggesting he did entirely the right thing is equivalent to giving Andrew the respect and notoriety he got after the first time. I don’t know exactly what was going through Andrew’s head (apart from a red mist) on the second occasion, but I think the respect and notoriety he got after the first probably caused him to take the brakes off a bit. Ahhh okay I’m with you - yeah, totally fair call. The question of whether Casey is more likely to go on to severely overreact in future because of the positive response he’s received online is one that I could only guess at an answer to. I am of the opinion that he did the right thing in a bad situation, but I hope that the collective message of the internet doesn’t come through to him as ‘That was good, but more is better’. I suppose time will tell. If I was a parent of Casey’s I’d be doing my best to simultaneously communicate to him that his behaviour here was justified and that he shouldn’t take any punishment for it to heart, but also that that response was more a necessary evil than anything else and that if he’d gone any further than he did, it would have been a very different scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Noel\_Prosequi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@Noel\_Prosequi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noel_Prosequi)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-learns-what-its-like-on-the-other-side/574829/102 "2011-03-23T08:29:34Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > My guess is that as a (a) provoked (b) juvenile Casey would not have faced prison. But if I recall my long ago law lectures on crim correctly (a dubious proposition) provocation isn’t necessarily going to get you out of criminal sanction entirely if the force you use is disproportionate. > > I would have my doubts that Casey would necessarily have been in the clear if the Little Shit had suffered serious injury. I’d like the opinion of someone who knows. Wonder if \*\*Noel \*\*is about? Hi **Princhester**. I haven’t had a chance to see the video (I’m at work) but I read the description at post 11. I gather he is in NSW. Bear in mind, I am a Code state criminal lawyer and NSW is a common law state. Generally in a case like this, the issues are consent, provocation and self-defence. I will spare you the excruciating technical details. Life’s too short. The law also varies across states. Assaults require proof of absence of consent, and it is entirely possible to embark on a consensual fight, meaning that neither party is guilty of assault if the action of the “victim” (here, the first person to throw a punch) allows of the conclusion that he was implicitly consenting to a mutual exchange of blows. There are limits to that proposition, however. At common law, that argument about consent will not help an accused person if the injured party suffers “bodily harm”. In Griffith Code states, consent is vitiated in this way only at the level of “grievous bodily harm”. There may be statutory variation of the common law even in the non-Code states - I haven’t looked. Provocation also has limits. In some states, it is not even a defence any more except in presently irrelevant circumstances. I think it still has application in NSW, but I am not sure. One of the components of provocation is “proportionality”, so that even if one has lost self-control, there is still a requirement that one not go batshit crazy (technical legal term) on some relatively slight provocation. It is for the prosecution to disprove the applicability of provocation. Lastly, self-defence is engaged. That too has upper limits. These things are questions of degree. If the skinny kid suffered grievous injury, it is likely that consent and provocation could be put out of the picture altogether as defences, and self-defence significantly limited (you have to anticipate a very high order of injury to yourself to justify a high order of injury in self-defence). Once again, the prosecution has to negative the availability of self-defence. Questions of mistake of fact on these issues can arise as well, but that’s a whole other can of worms. Without having seen the video, I can’t comment on what might happen here. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-learns-what-its-like-on-the-other-side/574829/103 "2011-03-23T08:39:11Z")
Many thanks **Noel** , about as I thought. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-learns-what-its-like-on-the-other-side/574829/104 "2011-03-23T13:38:14Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > How many different teachers did you try? Did you later try someone higher in the administration, or did you give up after one attempt? I only tried the one. I only had the one. I suppose I could have gone to the principal, but that didn’t occur to me. It was made clear to me by the bullies that tattling was just going to get me more bullying, though. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-learns-what-its-like-on-the-other-side/574829/105 "2011-03-23T15:47:58Z")
> [@Noel\_Prosequi](#): > > Hi **Princhester**. > > I haven’t had a chance to see the video (I’m at work) but I read the description at post 11. I gather he is in NSW. Bear in mind, I am a Code state criminal lawyer and NSW is a common law state. > > Generally in a case like this, the issues are consent, provocation and self-defence. I will spare you the excruciating technical details. Life’s too short. The law also varies across states. > > Assaults require proof of absence of consent, and it is entirely possible to embark on a consensual fight, meaning that neither party is guilty of assault if the action of the “victim” (here, the first person to throw a punch) allows of the conclusion that he was implicitly consenting to a mutual exchange of blows. There are limits to that proposition, however. At common law, that argument about consent will not help an accused person if the injured party suffers “bodily harm”. In Griffith Code states, consent is vitiated in this way only at the level of “grievous bodily harm”. There may be statutory variation of the common law even in the non-Code states - I haven’t looked. > > Provocation also has limits. In some states, it is not even a defence any more except in presently irrelevant circumstances. I think it still has application in NSW, but I am not sure. > > One of the components of provocation is “proportionality”, so that even if one has lost self-control, there is still a requirement that one not go batshit crazy (technical legal term) on some relatively slight provocation. It is for the prosecution to disprove the applicability of provocation. > > Lastly, self-defence is engaged. That too has upper limits. > > These things are questions of degree. If the skinny kid suffered grievous injury, it is likely that consent and provocation could be put out of the picture altogether as defences, and self-defence significantly limited (you have to anticipate a very high order of injury to yourself to justify a high order of injury in self-defence). Once again, the prosecution has to negative the availability of self-defence. > > Questions of mistake of fact on these issues can arise as well, but that’s a whole other can of worms. > > Without having seen the video, I can’t comment on what might happen here. What a bunch of bullshit. You lack the facility to make any plain persuasive statement, which makes you any good lawyer’s bitch in court. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-learns-what-its-like-on-the-other-side/574829/106 "2011-03-23T15:51:05Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > What a bunch of bullshit. You lack the facility to make any plain persuasive statement, which makes you any good lawyer’s bitch in court. What the hell? ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-learns-what-its-like-on-the-other-side/574829/107 "2011-03-23T15:52:13Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > What a bunch of bullshit. You lack the facility to make any plain persuasive statement, which makes you any good lawyer’s bitch in court. Knock off the personal insults. You’re in MPSIMS, not the Pit. No warning issued. **twickster** , MPSIMS moderator ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-learns-what-its-like-on-the-other-side/574829/108 "2011-03-23T16:21:49Z")
Given the nature of the SDMB, it was inevitable that the Devil’s Advocate hardheads would eventually come out of the woodwork. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-learns-what-its-like-on-the-other-side/574829/109 "2011-03-23T19:59:53Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > If there was no video, and the bully suffered more injuries, then Casey could have been charged and convicted of using excessive force. If your aunt had had any balls she’d have been your uncle. > [@](#): > > Telling a teacher isn’t a guarantee, but it’s something that should be done before you resort to violence. Apparently Casey never told anyone about the bullying and he should learn that he should have. How do you know this? > [@](#): > > I wasn’t talking about Casey, just the reaction to Casey’s video. Everyone (including Casey’s parents) just wants to treat him like a hero. Instead, he need to be treated like a child, and taught the proper way to handle himself when it comes to bullies. I’d say he has a right firm grip on it. ---
**Author:** ![Noel\_Prosequi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@Noel\_Prosequi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noel_Prosequi)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-learns-what-its-like-on-the-other-side/574829/110 "2011-03-23T21:31:45Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > What a bunch of bullshit. You lack the facility to make any plain persuasive statement, which makes you any good lawyer’s bitch in court. I am not trying to persuade anybody of anything. I have expressly not advanced a view about this case. The law is vastly complicated on these points, even if the issues seem simple to you. That is because it has to cover a wide range of circumstances beyond the present. If you thought I was expressing a view about the present debate, you are mistaken. I was asked to comment on a proposition of law. I did. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-learns-what-its-like-on-the-other-side/574829/111 "2011-03-23T22:08:40Z")
> [@Noel\_Prosequi](#): > > I am not trying to persuade anybody of anything. I have expressly not advanced a view about this case. The law is vastly complicated on these points, even if the issues seem simple to you. That is because it has to cover a wide range of circumstances beyond the present. > > If you thought I was expressing a view about the present debate, you are mistaken. I was asked to comment on a proposition of law. I did. That’ll learn ya. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bully-learns-what-its-like-on-the-other-side/574829.md?page=5)