# Bundy's and ilk go free. Damn them **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 25, 2017, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617 "2017-08-25T00:29:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617/81 "2017-08-26T14:15:04Z")
You are telling me “because they (the police) were white” is how you know the decision to firebomb MOVE hinged on their being black? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617/82 "2017-08-26T14:19:23Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Please make a case that they were killed for being black. Some of the government officials being white does not, in and of itself, demonstrate that. They were black and they were killed. Draw a link between those two things or withdraw the example. Some of the government officials being white? Try being precise – the government officials who made the call to aerial bomb the black occupiers and then to let the city block burn to the ground were white. In any event, you’re getting off track, for the issue under discussion (“ **Bundy’s and ilk go free. Damn them** ”) isn’t whether armed occupiers should be removed, but rather that armed occupiers should be appropriately penalized for their actions. Scumpup, the issue is not that the MOVE occupiers were killed for being black. The issue is that the Bundys et alia occupiers were cut passes because they were white. Do you believe for a moment that if a group of armed blacks occupied Malheur in precisely the same way that the Bundys et allia did would have been cut loose by the white jury? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617/83 "2017-08-26T14:25:39Z")
I think the suggestion that violence is somehow justified is absurd and serves only to inflame already festering tensions, and it frankly has no place in discourse. The lesson we ought to be remembering, whether we’re talking about protests in the streets of Charlottesville or some ranch out in Oregon, is that aggression only begets more aggression. Let’s just cut this kind of talk. Nevertheless, there is reason for alarm. The juries have been presented with overwhelming evidence and spare me the crap that I wasn’t there and that juries are necessarily qualified to render justice. Tell that to the victims of extra-judicial killings in the American South - jurors are ultimately humans with free will and they do sometimes decide to nullify laws, more often than not to the detriment of the citizens they’ve agreed to serve. These particular jurors have shown contempt for the rule of law and made a conscious decision to replace the justice of federal law with their own manufactured sense of justice. There are consequences for that. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617/84 "2017-08-26T14:29:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They were trying to overthrow the US government by taking over a bird sanctuary in Oregon? I guess you have to start somewhere… > > I’m all for prosecuting these yahoos, but let’s not create martyrs out of them. This. And that’s exactly what would happen. Holy crap, if you think these bastards have sympathy now, I can only imagine how much outrage there would be from paranoid right wing bozos if there was a firefight. These guys are basically a bunch of losers who need some sort of purpose in life and this is how they get it, standing up to law enforcement. They want to be cowboys and go out in a blaze of glory. Someone said up-thread that Obama’s admin was too soft of the Bundys. Jee-zus Christ could you imagine the outrage that would have happened if a black president had gone full-on Douglas MacArthur on these wackos? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617/85 "2017-08-26T14:56:57Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > … And the judge _reduced_ his sentence to 68 years. Let’s hope they ALL get the same type of “leniency”, and preferably the same judge. Reading up on them, they’ve spent their lives being scumbags and getting away with it… damn near all of them. Time to pay. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617/86 "2017-08-26T15:01:30Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Except when it comes to pardoning Arpaio. Then … _other_ considerations take precedence. Um yeah. It’s a fucking shame Arizona didn’t file some shit at the state level that can’t be pardoned by The Cheeto. Oh well Sheriif Joe will do something stupid and go to jail for something he can’t get out of. But, when he cried about “if they come after me they’ll come after anyone” it should be a clear indictor of what a whining sniveling cowardly piece of dog shit he really is. He needs a major beat down in an alley. Or many. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617/87 "2017-08-26T15:08:18Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > A legal system where charging for a higher crime gets you off for a lower crime you do have enough evidence for is a bad one. If it’s the lawyers’ fault for not including lesser charges, then that should be considered incompetence and there should be a remedy for their misconduct, like maybe allowing the state to sue them. Are you an idiot? The prosecuting attorneys **are** the State. So the government should sue itself? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617/88 "2017-08-26T15:14:20Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Are you an idiot? The prosecuting attorneys **are** the State. So the government should sue itself? He was talking about state vs federal. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617/89 "2017-08-26T15:17:50Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > This. > > And that’s exactly what would happen. Holy crap, if you think these bastards have sympathy now, I can only imagine how much outrage there would be from paranoid right wing bozos if there was a firefight. These guys are basically a bunch of losers who need some sort of purpose in life and this is how they get it, standing up to law enforcement. They want to be cowboys and go out in a blaze of glory. > > Someone said up-thread that Obama’s admin was too soft of the Bundys. Jee-zus Christ could you imagine the outrage that would have happened if a black president had gone full-on Douglas MacArthur on these wackos? Well, the Obamunists were already setting up FEMA camps, death lists, taking away our bullets (but only the .22 bullets for some odd reason), conducting “sinister secret” Army training exercises in Texas, and secretly converting all of us to Islam. Now they run the tip top ultra secret Deep State (or is that Derp State) shadow government 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617/90 "2017-08-26T15:46:30Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Nobody here is saying it was a _good_ plan. Perhaps bird-brained is a good descriptor for the plan. Except we’re finding out that birds are a lot smarter than we thought back when the phrase was coined. 🙂 Anyway, these guys aren’t out of the water yet. They got one of their knuckleheads killed in that standoff, and there are upcoming trials to be dealt with. That Ammon Bundy has a whole passel of kids, though, so we may be in for a few generations of kookiness. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617/91 "2017-08-26T16:33:40Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s the attitude inevitably created when it’s made obvious that a group is above the law. If the law of the state no longer applies then we are reduced to the law of the jungle; brute force, enforcing behavior by simply killing violators. > > If these right wing militias are allowed to run wild occupying, looting places and attacking people and the government refuses to stop them, eventually their victims will form their own gangs and fight back. Of course since\* those \*groups won’t be a bunch of white right wingers, I expect the government will massacre them. So all the people in the country here illegally, all the people who occupy Wall Street, protesters blocking street would all be fair game for extrajudicial execution? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617/92 "2017-08-26T16:40:40Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I think the suggestion that violence is somehow justified is absurd and serves only to inflame already festering tensions, and it frankly has no place in discourse. The lesson we ought to be remembering, whether we’re talking about protests in the streets of Charlottesville or some ranch out in Oregon, is that aggression only begets more aggression. Let’s just cut this kind of talk. > > Nevertheless, there is reason for alarm. The juries have been presented with overwhelming evidence and spare me the crap that I wasn’t there and that juries are necessarily qualified to render justice. Tell that to the victims of extra-judicial killings in the American South - jurors are ultimately humans with free will and they do sometimes decide to nullify laws, more often than not to the detriment of the citizens they’ve agreed to serve. These particular jurors have shown contempt for the rule of law and made a conscious decision to replace the justice of federal law with their own manufactured sense of justice. There are consequences for that. They are employing BigT’s advice. Don’t worry about the law. Use your own personal morality and feelings. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617/93 "2017-08-26T18:47:43Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > He was talking about state vs federal. I doubt he knows the difference. In any case, the alleged crime happened in a federal wildlife refuge. How would Oregon have grounds to sue the federal prosecuting attorney(s)??? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617/94 "2017-08-26T19:29:49Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > So all the people in the country here illegally, all the people who occupy Wall Street, protesters blocking street would all be fair game for extrajudicial execution? In your last case, there, some states have been [considering](http://www.local8now.com/content/news/Tennessee-lawmakers-introduce-bill-to-protect-drivers-if-they-hit-protesters-413629373.html) changing the law to allow drivers (not police, any drivers) to run down people protesting in the street. That, it seems, would go well beyond extralegal punishment. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617/95 "2017-08-26T19:57:23Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Are you an idiot? Have you noticed that nobody ever asks you that? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617/96 "2017-08-26T20:12:11Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > In your last case, there, some states have been [considering](http://www.local8now.com/content/news/Tennessee-lawmakers-introduce-bill-to-protect-drivers-if-they-hit-protesters-413629373.html) changing the law to allow drivers (not police, any drivers) to run down people protesting in the street. That, it seems, would go well beyond extralegal punishment. Those are indeed stupid laws, but none would allow drivers to “run down” protestors, assuming any of them even become law. Note from your cite about that particular bill: > [@](#): > > …the bill says drivers who willfully injure a protester will be held responsible ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617/97 "2017-08-26T20:39:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Those are indeed stupid laws, but none would allow drivers to “run down” protestors, assuming any of them even become law. Note from your cite about that particular bill: > > > [@](#): > > > > …the bill says drivers who willfully injure a protester will be held responsible Yes, it has been baffling. I have seen two or three articles making the claim that the laws would allow motorists to hit (presumably with their cars) nuisance protesters but closer examination seems to indicate that the bills amount to little more that weenie-waving. To allow motorists to hit protesters, one must assume that the motorist, angry at the delay, would somehow be able to distinguish a protester from a bystander who might just happen to be in the area. As far as I can tell, the laws would constitute a wink-and-a-nod to the police with respect to whom they ought to let off the hook, because you cannot prosecute someone without said person first being brought in by law enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617/98 "2017-08-26T20:45:27Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > In your last case, there, some states have been [considering](http://www.local8now.com/content/news/Tennessee-lawmakers-introduce-bill-to-protect-drivers-if-they-hit-protesters-413629373.html) changing the law to allow drivers (not police, any drivers) to run down people protesting in the street. That, it seems, would go well beyond extralegal punishment. Well, the protesters shouldn’t be blocking vital transportation networks. I actually am less concerned about a few nuts in a bird sanctuary than I am with people blocking streets when people need to get to the hospital or deliver my Amazon package. The bird occupiers are not causing that much stress or harm. Now, should the law be applied? Yes. Just like it should for people who riot, people who violently protest, people who block streets, people that are here illegally, etc. Let’s apply the law and stop with the politically motivated selective enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617/99 "2017-08-26T21:04:50Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Yes, it has been baffling. I have seen two or three articles making the claim that the laws would allow motorists to hit (presumably with their cars) nuisance protesters but closer examination seems to indicate that the bills amount to little more that weenie-waving. To allow motorists to hit protesters, one must assume that the motorist, angry at the delay, would somehow be able to distinguish a protester from a bystander who might just happen to be in the area. As far as I can tell, the laws would constitute a wink-and-a-nod to the police with respect to whom they ought to let off the hook, because you cannot prosecute someone without said person first being brought in by law enforcement. Stupid laws. Drivers are already not liable for hitting someone if it’s done through no fault of their own. Some idiot jumps out in front of your car, and you are not liable whether that person is a protester or someone’s grandmother. But regardless, most of us still don’t condone the government killing protestors deliberately. Stupid law or no stupid law. Two wrongs do not make a right. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617/100 "2017-08-27T11:15:36Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Well, the protesters shouldn’t be blocking vital transportation networks. I actually am less concerned about a few nuts in a bird sanctuary than I am with people blocking streets when people need to get to the hospital or deliver my Amazon package. You’re seriously equating getting an ambulance on an emergency run to getting a package delivered? Well, I guess there is some similarity to the two events, but not enough to make them of equal value to someone who isn’t either a troll or an idiot, or both. > [@](#): > > The bird occupiers are not causing that much stress or harm. Nice weasel words, those: “not that much stress or harm”. Except, there’s the nifty bit of all the damage the Bundy morons did to facilities, equipment, and the natural environment (which, by the way, were all supposedly protected by law). And let’s not forget the nifty fact of attempted murder of law enforcement personnel. Just because one of those idiots got killed for his stupidity does not, in reality, absolve the rest of them for that crime. Maybe in your book attempted murder isn’t “all that much harm”, but for most normal people, it certainly is. > [@](#): > > Now, should the law be applied? Yes. Just like it should for people who riot, people who violently protest, people who block streets, people that are here illegally, etc. Let’s apply the law and stop with the politically motivated selective enforcement. Got news for you, Spunky; the United States Supreme Court says those who are in the US illegally also have constitutional rights. That means that not only should the law be applied when they are breaking the law, but those folks still have constitutional protections. One of those protections is to not have cruel and unusual punishments. One should easily grasp–unless, of course, one is either a troll or an idiot, or both–that getting run down intentionally for either (a) jaywalking or (b) exercising one’s constitutional right to protest is an unusual punishment. Apparently I made a mistake regarding you. I foolishly took you off my ignore list. That’s one mistake fixed! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-and-ilk-go-free-damn-them/794617.md?page=6)