# Bundy's remarks about African-Americans were arguably stupid, and ignorant and offensive but.. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 25, 2014, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000 "2014-04-25T23:35:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![kstarnes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4da419/32.png) [@kstarnes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kstarnes)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000/1 "2014-04-25T23:35:34Z")
A snippet of his remarks: “I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro. When I go through North Las Vegas and I would see these little government houses, and in front of that government house, the door was usually open and the older people and the kid, and there’s always at least half a dozen people sitting on the porch, the didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do. And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do? They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom. They had less family life, and their happiness, you can see in their faces they weren’t happy setting on that concrete sidewalk.” * * * I’m not here to defend this guy, and I don’t like him or his hypocritical stance for a variety of reasons but his remarks lack a critical element: HOSTILITY or HATE. Again, the remarks were stupid and ignorant and offensive but shouldn’t be construed as ‘racist’ without overt hostility or hate. He seems to be saying that our welfare system has not helped the African-American work ethic. This may be a factually inaccurate, but doesn’t strike me as hostile or hateful. This thread is a call to reduce the amount of ‘racism-shaming,’ and to tighten and define properly what it means to be racist. The term is too promiscuously used. I’m against that. I Pit that, over some BBQ. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000/2 "2014-04-25T23:42:30Z")
> [@kstarnes](#): > > Again, the remarks were stupid and ignorant and offensive but shouldn’t be construed as ‘racist’ without overt hostility or hate. He seems to be saying that our welfare system has not helped the African-American work ethic. This may be a factually inaccurate, but doesn’t strike me as hostile or hateful. He also seems to be saying that blacks can’t live responsible and productive lives without whites to control them. That **is** racist even without the hatred. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000/3 "2014-04-25T23:44:16Z")
I strongly disagree that racism requires hostility or hate. It only requires that you regard “all” members of an ethnic group as behaving or being a certain way due to that ethnicity, and it helps if you regard yourself as superior to them on that basis. Lots of racist southerners used to (maybe some still do) regard black people as simple as children, who have to be taken care of (and who therefore shouldn’t have the vote). Often hate is not evident when people express these attitudes (viz. Paula Deen). Doesn’t make them any less racist than the KKK with a noose and burning cross. “Look at all those X people, all they do is lay around and take the government handouts. Maybe they would be happier if we forced them to work.” The first sentence is racist if X is an ethnicity. The second sentence borders on fascism. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000/4 "2014-04-25T23:46:23Z")
> [@kstarnes](#): > > I’m not here to defend this guy, and I don’t like him or his hypocritical stance for a variety of reasons but his remarks lack a critical element: HOSTILITY or HATE. > > Again, the remarks were stupid and ignorant and offensive but shouldn’t be construed as ‘racist’ without overt hostility or hate. He seems to be saying that our welfare system has not helped the African-American work ethic. This may be a factually inaccurate, but doesn’t strike me as hostile or hateful. > > This thread is a call to reduce the amount of ‘racism-shaming,’ and to tighten and define properly what it means to be racist. The term is too promiscuously used. I’m against that. I Pit that, over some BBQ. Let me guess, you learned this at Stormfront during your research! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000/5 "2014-04-25T23:51:11Z")
Oh FFS, how many times have we heard this “welfare is being used to keep the black man down” by people who, at the same time, think that slavery "wasn’t so bad " or was even a good idea? These same klansboyz always seem to ignore the large numbers of white people on welfare. At best the most charitable thing can be said is that Bundy has a mad-on hatred of city folk ways. More likely he is just a fuckhead racist. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000/6 "2014-04-25T23:59:56Z")
> [@kstarnes](#): > > This thread is a call to reduce the amount of ‘racism-shaming,’ and to tighten and define properly what it means to be racist. The term is too promiscuously used. I’m against that. I Pit that, over some BBQ. Seriously? You don’t think the remarks you quoted are [racist](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racist)? You’re either trolling or stupid. Go away. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000/7 "2014-04-26T00:09:29Z")
I vote for “stupid troll”. Hey speaking of racists-in-the-news - turns out that Frazier Cross, the former KKK Wizzard and current anti-semitic murderer, was once busted for having sex with a black transvestite prostitute. You’re all shocked, I’m sure. I know I was. > **[REPORT: Former KKK Grand Dragon Arrested With Black Prostitute](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/frazier-glenn-cross-prostitution_n_5213318)** > > REPORT: Former KKK Grand Dragon Arrested With Black Prostitute ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000/8 "2014-04-26T00:13:24Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Seriously? You don’t think the remarks you quoted are [racist](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racist)? > > You’re either trolling or stupid. Go away. I’m betting on stupid. OP…white Europeans, especially landless ones which were the majority in Europe were slaves in all but name. Why wouldn’t they have been better in that state as, of course, all of their needs were met? It was extremely offensive and hilariously funny because it lost Bundy a great deal of desperately needed support. Hopefully, he’ll continue to spew his noxious rantings out and he will become an object of ridicule and scorn just before the BLM and the IRS place liens on his property and drive him into bankruptcy. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000/9 "2014-04-26T00:28:24Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Hey speaking of racists-in-the-news - turns out that Frazier Cross, the former KKK Wizzard and current anti-semitic murderer, was once busted for having sex with a black transvestite prostitute. You’re all shocked, I’m sure. I know I was. As long as she wasn’t jewish… ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000/10 "2014-04-26T00:40:31Z")
I bet I can name one black family in a government house that really chaps his ass. Dunno if the White House technically has a porch though. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000/11 "2014-04-26T00:42:10Z")
There are times when evidence is used to support a conclusion, and times when conclusions are obtained after looking at the evidence. This is more of the former, he started with the conclusion then found the evidence he wanted to justify it. He wants to believe blacks are lazy and stupid, so he finds evidence of this by looking for it. I’ve worked with a variety of black people who are perfectly talented and educated. Most of us aren’t going around looking for the most dysfunctional 20% of blacks and ascribing those traits to all of them. I seriously doubt Cliven Bundy looks at all the middle class blacks who are doing fine, that doesn’t support his conclusion. Also to hear Bundy who has fed his cows for free on federal land criticize those who get government subsidies is absurd. It is like those elderly people on medicare and social security after earning 25k a year for their whole lives (not nearly enough to pay into the system what they take out of it) complaining about the takers on welfare. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000/12 "2014-04-26T00:49:19Z")
**OP**. You’ve been here for 17 months. You have 47 posts. But…You have started 21 threads, many of which (in my opinion) are slanted towards discussing/contesting news stories about minorities. Not all, but many. I also vote troll. Not a classic troll. But you’re not looking for belonging to a community. You’re looking to promote your agenda. Many of your threads --I don’t understand your motivation. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000/13 "2014-04-26T00:49:34Z")
Turns out there was more to his comments that didn’t make the news. [This site](http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/unedited-tape-bundy-emerges-sheds-light-racist-remarks) has a more complete record of comments made before and after the comment quoted in the OP. I don’t have an opinion, and I don’t hang out in the pit, but offer the complete remarks for enlightenment. > [@Bundy](#): > > and so what I’ve testified to you – I was in the Watts riot, I seen the beginning fire and I seen that last fire. What I seen is civil disturbance. People are not happy, people are thinking they don’t have their freedoms, they didn’t have these things, and they didn’t have them. > > We’ve progressed quite a bit from that day until now, and we sure don’t want to go back. We sure don’t want the colored people to go back to that point. We sure don’t want these Mexican people to go back to that point. And we can make a difference right now by taking care of some of these bureaucracies, and do it in a peaceful way. > [@Bundy](#): > > ``` > Now, let me talk about the Spanish people. You know, I understand that they come over here against our Constitution and cross our borders. But they’re here and they’re people -- and I’ve worked side by side a lot of them. > > Don’t tell me they don’t work, and don’t tell me they don’t pay taxes. And don’t tell me they don’t have better family structures than most of us white people. When you see those Mexican families, they’re together, they picnic together, they’re spending their time together, and I’ll tell you in my way of thinking they’re awful nice people. And we need to have those people join us and be with us not, not come to our party. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000/14 "2014-04-26T01:45:10Z")
Well, enlightenment is something this Bundy dude needs. Quite nice that he really likes “the Spanish people”, though running any sort of ranch or farm in the Southwest without a whole lot of them to provide the labor would be nigh impossible so of course he’s more familiar with them. But he’s still out in WTF-land with his positions on “the Negro”… wondering if a population group could have been better off in _chattel bondage_ than in mere poverty? Yep, makes you looney fringe. And someone can be racist yet not be universally disparaging to ALL groups, or favorable exclusively to his own. (Damn, tell me there’s footage of him talking about “the Jew”…) And yes, he talks about the damaging effects of “subsidies”, for some reason preferring not to use the term “welfare” – yet many ostensibly conservative farmers/ranchers have no trouble accepting subsidies – and his original problem is that he believes profiting from grazing in open public land is some sort of “natural right” on which the Federal Government has no authority to assess any sort of user fee. What happens if someone else wants to graze on the same open public space? Old-timey range war? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000/15 "2014-04-26T01:48:23Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I don’t have an opinion, and I don’t hang out in the pit, but offer the complete remarks for enlightenment. Oh, I feel enlightened. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000/16 "2014-04-26T02:02:39Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I bet I can name one black family in a government house that really chaps his ass. Dunno if the White House technically has a porch though. It has [two porticoes](http://www.whitehousemuseum.org/residence.htm). A [portico](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/portico?s=t) counts as a porch, right? ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000/17 "2014-04-26T02:09:38Z")
> [@kstarnes](#): > > Again, the remarks were stupid and ignorant and offensive but shouldn’t be construed as ‘racist’ without overt hostility or hate. He seems to be saying that our welfare system has not helped the African-American work ethic. This may be a factually inaccurate, but doesn’t strike me as hostile or hateful. I understand completely, and I feel nothing but love for you. I sincerely hope that you get the help you need to stop being a fucking idiot. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000/18 "2014-04-26T03:15:17Z")
Why are we treating the poster with anything but contempt? His last post was a stupid riff defending a racist site and arguing that Jews control NYC. He’s a putz. A schmuck. A schlemiel. My cats have more brains. And, given that both are impressive mousers, far more usefulness. Go away, OP. You suck. Slavery is a vile and disgusting stain on American history. There is no defense for it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000/19 "2014-04-26T04:17:33Z")
I find that comment speciesist. ---
**Author:** ![kstarnes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4da419/32.png) [@kstarnes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kstarnes)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000/20 "2014-04-26T04:31:36Z")
Put another way, I’m just saying that stupidity and ignorance can be fought with more speech, education, and conversation but we should limit the use that term ‘racist’ to those who are truly hostile and hateful. This is just an opinion. “Racism” has simply become too expansive, the price paid is speech and ideas, and sometimes truth. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bundys-remarks-about-african-americans-were-arguably-stupid-and-ignorant-and-offensive-but/687000.md?page=2)