# Bunkers under Washington
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [August 18, 2018, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830 "2018-08-18T14:53:31Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)
#### Post date: [August 18, 2018, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830/1 "2018-08-18T14:53:31Z")
Wikipedia has a neat article about military citadels under London. (I seem to have forgotten how to do a link correctly, I put it at the bottom.) There is also a neat article about the defenses of Paris. The only thing we got for Washington is the Civil War defenses.
What do we know about secret bunkers, tunnels and so on under Washington? I can’t find much. A map would be nice.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military\_citadels\_under\_London](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_citadels_under_London)
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### Author:  [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)
#### Post date: [August 18, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830/2 "2018-08-18T16:32:43Z")
The only one I can think of is the Greenbriar:
> **[The Secret Bunker Congress That Never Used](https://www.npr.org/2011/03/26/134379296/the-secret-bunker-congress-never-used)**
>
> For 30 years, it was kept secret. Hidden in West Virginia's Greenbrier Resort was a massive bomb shelter stocked with supplies for members of Congress in case of an emergency.
Dennis
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [August 18, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830/3 "2018-08-18T16:35:31Z")
There’s the [Presidential Emergency Operations Center](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Emergency_Operations_Center) below the White House and [Mount Weather](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Weather_Emergency_Operations_Center), although that’s outside of DC.
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### Author:  [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)
#### Post date: [August 18, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830/4 "2018-08-18T16:37:59Z")
Yes, exactly. They are not part of a secret complex of tunnels. We can assume that at least some such facilities exist. Small mentions of them surface in the press. We are obviously keeping our secrets pretty well.
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### Author:  [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)
#### Post date: [August 18, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830/5 "2018-08-18T16:44:41Z")
There are tunnels and mini-subways that connect the capital building to the senate offices. These aren’t exactly secret, but they aren’t open to the public either.
> **[United States Capitol subway system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Capitol_subway_system)**
>
> .mw-parser-output .RMbox{box-shadow:0 2px 2px 0 rgba(0,0,0,.14),0 1px 5px 0 rgba(0,0,0,.12),0 3px 1px -2px rgba(0,0,0,.2)}.mw-parser-output .RMinline{float:none;width:100%;margin:0;border:none}.mw-parser-output table.routemap{padding:0;border:0;border-collapse:collapse;background:transparent;white-space:nowrap;line-height:1.2;margin:auto}.mw-parser-output table.routemap .RMcollapse{margin:0;border-collapse:collapse;vertical-align:middle}.mw-parser-output table.routemap .RMreplace{margin:0;border-...
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [August 18, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830/6 "2018-08-18T17:08:27Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#):
>
> Yes, exactly. They are not part of a secret complex of tunnels. We can assume that at least some such facilities exist. Small mentions of them surface in the press. We are obviously keeping our secrets pretty well.
If I were building such a thing, I’d use subway construction as a cover story. So perhaps the Washington Metro was built to disguise the secret tunnels? But I learn from Wikipedia that the Metro was built in the 1970s and that seems too late for a Cold War era series of nuclear bunkers.
But keep in mind that, unlike Washington, London was actively being bombed during the Second World War, so the Brits _needed_ underground bunkers more than the Americans.
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### Author:  [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)
#### Post date: [August 18, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830/7 "2018-08-18T17:46:48Z")
Something like the [Presidential Emergency Operations Center](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Emergency_Operations_Center) might be useful in a 9/11-style terrorist attack, but I doubt building some elaborate (and expensive) maze of tunnels under Washington, D.C., would be anything but a boondoggle in terms of nuclear war.
From the [“NUKEMAP”](http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/) nuclear explosion effects calculator, a 500 kiloton surface burst would make a crater more than 200 feet deep. (And it’s not like your bunker will be totally OK if it’s 300 feet down; even if your bunker is deep enough that you aren’t directly turned into fallout, I’m sure there would still be some horrendous shock waves that will probably cave in your roof.)
Building underground bunkers probably made sense when the threat was propeller-driven airplanes dropping conventional explosives, or _maybe_ even when the airplanes were dropping Hiroshima or Nagasaki sized nuclear bombs. Once people started fielding weapons in the hundreds of kilotons to megatons range, I think the only real hope for survival (well, immediate survival, without getting into the issues of long-term food and water and radioactive contamination and the total collapse of modern industrialized civilization) is to not be there when the bombs go off–get on [a big airplane](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_E-4) and go somewhere very far away from Washington, D.C.
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### Author:  [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)
#### Post date: [August 18, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830/8 "2018-08-18T17:54:17Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#):
>
> There are tunnels and mini-subways that connect the capital building to the senate offices. These aren’t exactly secret, but they aren’t open to the public either.
>
> [United States Capitol subway system - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Capitol_subway_system)
You can go through one if you set up a tour to do it first. You even get to ride the electric rail that’s been in use there for decades.
As for tunnels, there is [Site R](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_Rock_Mountain_Complex) (the Raven Rock Mountain Complex), located in Pennsylvania. It’s not a secret, as there are people living nearby, but it’s pretty impressive inside (I was able to visit it when my company had a construction project going on there). I can tell you that it has huge blast doors and its own underground bus service.
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### Author:  [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)
#### Post date: [August 18, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830/9 "2018-08-18T17:57:14Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#):
>
> Once people started fielding weapons in the hundreds of kilotons to megatons range, I think the only real hope for survival (well, immediate survival, without getting into the issues of long-term food and water and radioactive contamination and the total collapse of modern industrialized civilization) is to not be there when the bombs go off–get on [a big airplane](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_E-4) and go somewhere very far away from Washington, D.C.
_Secret_ underground bunkers away from other strategic targets would be just fine. Even surface buildings stocked with survival gear would be fine, assuming they are a significant distance from the ground zeroes. The problem is the fallout plume will soon come and if you don’t have a way get enough feet of material between you and the fallout particles, and also filter the air and wash off contaminants from people entering and leaving, you may still die.
So bunkers that the enemy doesn’t target because they either don’t know they exist or they are too small to bother with are what would make it.
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### Author:  [@Dobbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dobbs)
#### Post date: [August 18, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830/10 "2018-08-18T19:06:48Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#):
>
> What do we know about secret bunkers, tunnels and so on under Washington? I can’t find much. A map would be nice.
There’s an expression that applies -
“Those who say, don’t know, those who know, don’t say.”
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### Author:  [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)
#### Post date: [August 19, 2018, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830/11 "2018-08-19T01:07:06Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#):
>
> There are tunnels and mini-subways that connect the capital building to the senate offices. These aren’t exactly secret, but they aren’t open to the public either.
>
> [United States Capitol subway system - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Capitol_subway_system)
> [@](#):
>
> The systems are open to public insofar as members of the public must be escorted by a staff member with proper identification. This is usually during a tour of the [Capitol Complex](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Capitol_Complex). However, during votes, the House subway is restricted to congressional members. The Russell subway is restricted to members and staff during times when the Senate is voting. Since the terrorist attacks of [September 11, 2001](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks), restrictions have been placed on visitors using the Senate subway between the Hart and Dirksen buildings.
They used to be open to the public unescorted. There was the from car strictly reserved for Members of Congress at the time. I’ve ridden it back then, in the public cars as well as the Members only car.
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### Author:  [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)
#### Post date: [August 19, 2018, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830/12 "2018-08-19T03:29:16Z")
> [@mixdenny](#):
>
> The only one I can think of is the Greenbriar:
>
> [The Secret Bunker Congress That Never Used : NPR](https://www.npr.org/2011/03/26/134379296/the-secret-bunker-congress-never-used)
>
> Dennis
Some rich relatives took me to the Greenbrier, sometime around1977-1979. Didn’t get to stay there, as they didn’t like me THAT MUCH. Got to walk around the fancy grounds and building for a few hours. They showed me the entrance to the ‘secret’ bunker. Didn’t get any further than that, but as a barely preteen, I thought that was pretty damn cool. I enjoyed having that ‘forbidden knowledge’ for years, but even i realized at the time that if I knew it, it wasn’t that big a secret. I of course told my friends at school, though I at least kept it on an individual basis–no “summer vacation”-type reports in the front of the class or anything. 🙂
Should have been a nicer day than it was. We drove for a longer time we spent there, we didn’t eat there or use any of the facilities, not even the video arcade that would have made any kid my age drool. Dunno why we even went. I can’t even imagine they cared enough to make me jealous of what they had, but it kind of felt that way.
Beautiful place, weird day for Face, and it looks like the cat was well out of the bag by the time the Carter years rolled around.
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### Author:  [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)
#### Post date: [August 19, 2018, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830/13 "2018-08-19T03:34:38Z")
> [@Duckster](#):
>
> They used to be open to the public unescorted. There was the from car strictly reserved for Members of Congress at the time. I’ve ridden it back then, in the public cars as well as the Members only car.
How many mirelurks did you encounter?
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### Author:  [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)
#### Post date: [August 19, 2018, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830/14 "2018-08-19T03:58:32Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#):
>
> How many mirelurks did you encounter?
None—they’re closer to the river—but it’s the the reaver ghouls that I really sweated on that level. Seriously, throwing pieces of yourself at enemies, and they explodes? And you can just keep doing that forever? What was Bethesda thinking…?
I’m with Duckster: I remember walking along the tunnels next to the rail car on a school trip in 1991. They had security with bomb doggies, but otherwise let our group walk from the Capitol building to, IIRC, Dirksen. It’s been awhile. I got the impression that you could ride the tram—and we may have, I just don’t remember—but you’d have to make a reservation with your Congresscritter.
I get the feeling that NUKEMAP varies quite a bit in its crater making, and to be true, Gladstone does say that, IIRC. I don’t think the same bomb is carving out quite as big a hole in, e.g., solid granite, as it will in fill or sedimentary soils. Still probably enough to ruin your day. Even if your bunker survives the blast in one piece, as would probably be the case for something like a Minuteman LCC, _you_ probably won’t survive the fall to the bottom of whatever hole the bomb just excavated.
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### Author:  [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)
#### Post date: [August 19, 2018, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830/15 "2018-08-19T04:09:59Z")
Here’s a book about American efforts to save ourselves from nuclear attack.
TL : DR - While we all hope they will never have to be used, they probably won’t work anyway.
> **[Raven Rock: The Story of the U.S. Government's Secret Plan to Save Itself--While...](https://www.amazon.com/Raven-Rock-Governments-Secret-Itself-While/dp/1476735409)**
>
> Raven Rock: The Story of the U.S. Government's Secret Plan to Save Itself--While the Rest of Us Die \[Graff, Garrett M.\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Raven Rock: The Story of the U.S. Government's Secret Plan to Save...
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### Author:  [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)
#### Post date: [August 19, 2018, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830/16 "2018-08-19T13:46:48Z")
London is built on clay, so it is relatively easy to carve tunnels underneath. Here are a few of the lesser known ones.
> **[10 Secret Underground Spaces In London](https://londonist.com/2016/02/ten-secret-underground-spaces-in-london)**
>
> How many of these do you know about?
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### Author:  [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)
#### Post date: [August 19, 2018, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830/17 "2018-08-19T13:53:49Z")
I read the _Raven Rock_ book. My Dad worked at Camp David and some of the LongLines programs.
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### Author:  [@tingbudong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tingbudong)
#### Post date: [August 19, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830/18 "2018-08-19T17:14:10Z")
Canada had the Deifenbunkers.
> **[Emergency Government Headquarters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Government_Headquarters?wprov=sfla1)**
>
> Coordinates: .mw-parser-output .geo-default,.mw-parser-output .geo-dms,.mw-parser-output .geo-dec{display:inline}.mw-parser-output .geo-nondefault,.mw-parser-output .geo-multi-punct{display:none}.mw-parser-output .longitude,.mw-parser-output .latitude{white-space:nowrap}45°21′06″N 76°03′00″W / 45.35169°N 76.0499409°W / 45.35169; -76.0499409
> Emergency Government Headquarters is the name given for a system of nuclear fallout shelters built by the Government of Canada in the 1950s and 1960s as p...
Looks like the government could be building some new ones as well.
> **[Canada sets aside two bunkers at military bases amid global uncertainty,...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/north-korea-canada-cold-war-plan-1.4424523)**
>
> Rising global tension, notably over North Korea, has prompted federal officials to review and in some cases revise a series of critical contingency plans, including one that involves the evacuation of the federal cabinet to a secure military base...
Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk
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### Author:  [@busterpickle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/busterpickle)
#### Post date: [August 19, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830/19 "2018-08-19T19:50:59Z")
DC is also a lot of reclaimed swamp, due to proximity to the Potomac River. So, not only would building a bunker hundreds of feet down be problematic, maintenance would be costly. You’d also have to consider how to pump the water once the utilities are offline after an attack. Probably be OK for a little bit, the exit would have to be built in such a way that it’s waterproofed top to bottom so a water column that’s hundred of feet high doesn’t occur.
Doing some guesstimating, a four foot diameter by 300 foot shaft would have about a million pounds of water in it.
Be much better to get outta dodge. Which would be via VF-22 due to its higher top speed and ceiling. Doubt they’d have time to go to DCA, board a larger aircraft, and then take off.
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### Author:  [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)
#### Post date: [August 19, 2018, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bunkers-under-washington/819830/20 "2018-08-19T22:54:45Z")
> [@electronbee](#):
>
> DC is also a lot of reclaimed swamp, due to proximity to the Potomac River. So, not only would building a bunker hundreds of feet down be problematic, maintenance would be costly. You’d also have to consider how to pump the water once the utilities are offline after an attack. Probably be OK for a little bit, the exit would have to be built in such a way that it’s waterproofed top to bottom so a water column that’s hundred of feet high doesn’t occur.
The PEOC exists, right? There’s at least a few bunkers in DC.
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