# Burning books in the US...'Burn Quran Day' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891 "2010-08-20T17:58:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/421 "2010-09-02T18:14:03Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I simply note that the dishonest mischaracterization that you have accepted regarding various suras does not support your claim that the religion actually encourages murder of all unbelievers. Do you agree that it condones it in defense of Islam and Muslims? Who decides what it needs to defend against and whom? A few other quotes as support (Osama himself seems to agree): > [@](#): > > 4:76 Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan. > (4:76) “Fight the minions of the devil.” > Believers fight for Allah; disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil. (Quoted by Osama bin Laden in his ‘’letter to America’’ as a justification for the 11 September 2001 attacks.) > [@](#): > > 4:74 Let those fight in the cause of God Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of God,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value). > (4:74) “Fight in the way of Allah. “ > Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in holy wars. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/422 "2010-09-02T18:27:27Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So what makes them so different? Is it genetic? Hardly likely, Indonesian Muslims are very removed from Arabic Muslims. > > If your going to make the case that Muslims are aggressive and warlike due to blind obedience to carefully selected texts, you have to account for why they are so different in that regard. And why they are not equally blindly obedient to those texts which insist on tolerance and generosity, esp. as regards Christians and Jews. There have been a series of terrorist acts linked to radical Islam™ in Indonesia starting with the Bali bombing which killed 202 people. The same general process that spawns terrorists in the Middle East exists in Indonesia. [From the South Asia Analysis Group](http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpapers16%5Cpaper1596.html):\*\* Ansja’ad Mbai who heads the anti terror desk at the office of the Chief Security Minister said recently “50 % of Muslim clerics preaching at Friday prayers had often encouraged hatred and hostility against other religious groups” (Jakarta Post 24 October 2005).\*\* \*\*Investigations of the major terrorist incidents in Bali and Jakarta since 2002 have revealed that some of these pesantren are “breeding extremists through radical interpretation of Islam”. Three of the men convicted for the Bali and Marriott Hotel attacks have been students of the Al-Mukmin boarding school founded by Abu Bakaar Bashir, the alleged head of Jemaah Islamiah. Sidney Jones, a terrorism expert and Director of the International Crisis Group, has said that there are18 Islamic schools affiliated to the terror cell of Jemaah Islamiah in the country which were used to train Jihadis. She has also linked these schools with an university in Surakarta, Central Java.\*\* Training children in a school dedicated to radical Islam™ appears to be the same recipe used by terrorist groups in the Middle East and around the world. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/423 "2010-09-02T18:48:29Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Do you agree that it condones it in defense of […] Muslims? As does the law of every Western country, I believe. Ah, those bloody savages and their barbaric notions of “self-defense” ! > [@](#): > > Koran cherry-picks I really enjoy this quote game of yours, can I play too ? [QUOTE= some fanatic dude or another] the American people in their \*\*righteous might \*\* will win through to **absolute victory**. We will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost but will make it **very certain** that this form of treachery shall **never again** endanger us. We will gain the **inevitable triumph—so help us God**. [/QUOTE] For your convenience, I bolded the bits that you should consider extra spooky. Read [the whole thing here](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor_speech), it’s really quite frightful. Lots of scary words. ---
**Author:** ![bbart4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/51bf81/32.png) [@bbart4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bbart4)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/424 "2010-09-02T18:51:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There have been a series of terrorist acts linked to radical Islam™ in Indonesia starting with the Bali bombing which killed 202 people. > > The same general process that spawns terrorists in the Middle East exists in Indonesia. [From the South Asia Analysis Group](http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpapers16%5Cpaper1596.html):\*\* Ansja’ad Mbai who heads the anti terror desk at the office of the Chief Security Minister said recently “50 % of Muslim clerics preaching at Friday prayers had often encouraged hatred and hostility against other religious groups” (Jakarta Post 24 October 2005).\*\* > > \*\*… > > Sidney Jones, a terrorism expert and Director of the International Crisis Group, has said that there are18 Islamic schools affiliated to the terror cell of Jemaah Islamiah in the country which were used to train Jihadis. She has also linked these schools with an university in Surakarta, Central Java.\*\* > > Training children in a school dedicated to radical Islam™ appears to be the same recipe used by terrorist groups in the Middle East and around the world. I like how you picked and chose your cites. Things are not static there. By quoting selectively you ignore the dynamics and fluidity of public opinions. Again, that data are old and not reflective of what’s going on the ground. Support for radicalism has been up and down in Indonesia. It was going up between 2002-2005. It was up during the heights of the Iraq war definitely. But it’s been on the way down since. In fact in the last election in Indonesia, almost all Islamic parties suffered defeats. [Link1](http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2009/0409/p06s10-woap.html) [Link2](http://inside.org.au/indonesia%E2%80%99s-islamic-parties-in-decline/) ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/425 "2010-09-02T19:06:50Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > As does the law of every Western country, I believe. Ah, those bloody savages and their barbaric notions of “self-defense” ! Against what are they defending? When I defend myself, I am in peril for my life or property (depending on what jurisdiction I am in). I am not defending some made up notion of god. > [@](#): > > For your convenience, I bolded the bits that you should consider extra spooky. Read [the whole thing here](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor_speech), it’s really quite frightful. Lots of scary words. Are you claiming the quote was from god? Are you claiming it should guide our actions today and into the future? Are you planning to start a religion based upon these words? Otherwise, what is your point? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/426 "2010-09-02T19:15:47Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > (Osama himself seems to agree) Exactly. Osama bin Laden, the zealot whose first targets were other Muslims who did not share his beliefs, chooses to interpret various passages of his scripture in a particular way–and you choose to support him in those efforts. It is rather like quoting Richard Butler, Rob Matthews, and Eric Rudolph on the meaning of the Christian scriptures, then deciding that their views are what Billy Graham, Dorothy Day, and Philip Berrigan “really” believed. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/427 "2010-09-02T19:45:22Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Against what are they defending? When I defend myself, I am in peril for my life or property (depending on what jurisdiction I am in). I am not defending some made up notion of god. When it was written, \*they \*were defending themselves from Meccan authorities, I believe. But in a more general sense, I think those verses would be applicable and inspirational/comforting and therefore quotable whenever some exterior power invades a Muslim community, kingdom or country with bad intentions. As I demonstrated, you can find echoes of the same concepts in most speeches made by leaders of countries facing invasion or communities facing persecution. Isn’t the idea that even though evil might triumph today, it will all be made right and just eventually half the point of the concept of god(s) ? > [@](#): > > Are you claiming the quote was from god? Are you claiming it should guide our actions today and into the future? Are you planning to start a religion based upon these words? Otherwise, what is your point? My point is you can cherry-pick any text for the scary bits, strip it of all context and make it sound aggressive. Which doesn’t make those scary bits universal, all encompassing or even literally true. Yes, that also applies to religious texts meant to edumacate medieval people. Yes, even if modern fanatics insist that they are. I’ll reiterate since you didn’t read it the first time : Manson justified his actions with the lyrics of _Helter Skelter_. Does it make Paul McCartney a bad bad man ? All Beatles fans, maybe ? Who the fuck pays attention to what nutters say or believe, let alone base themselves on that to judge everyone else ? ---
**Author:** ![Don123](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Don123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don123)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/428 "2010-09-02T19:45:27Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > > [@Kobal2](#): > > > > You, sir, owe me one drink for that spit take. > > Did you do another one at “One can clearly see that Western Europe was fighting for its life and survival against the savage Islamic empire”? > > **Don** , one gets the impression from your posts that you see Muslims as sub-human cartoon monsters, a mindless ravening horde bent on consuming the world like the aliens in _independence Day_. You claim that there are no such thing as moderate Muslims, that they are all following a command from Allah to kill unbelievers (apart from the ones that are so “stupid” that they kill each other), and that any Muslims that don’t actively espouse violence are either lying or not following their religion correctly. All violent acts by Muslims are attributed solely to their faith despite considerable evidence of other signficant socio-political factors and generalized to apply to all Muslims. You cite deeply biased websites, cherrypicked quotes and flawed historical analyses, and when the biases are pointed out, the contexts given and the history corrected you ignore them and post more of the same. > > And then you talk about their lack of “tolerance”. What are we to do? To the Mods, I have tried, with much effort, to edit this down and still leave the usable context; I hope you find it acceptable. Don, one gets the impression from your posts that you see Muslims as sub-human cartoon monsters, a mindless ravening horde bent on consuming the world like the aliens in independence Day. You can be impressed any way you desire, that is not my problem to deal with. You claim that there are no such thing as moderate Muslims, My response: Here read for yourself: (These references are NOT copyrighted—but can be used for non-monetary purposes, as long as the source (web site) is identified.) [http://formermuslimsunited.americancommunityexchange.org/2010/03/13/exposing-the-myth-of-moderate-islam/](http://formermuslimsunited.americancommunityexchange.org/2010/03/13/exposing-the-myth-of-moderate-islam/) Exposing the Myth of Moderate Islam It is time to put an end to the charade of “moderate Islam.” There is no such thing as moderate Muslim. Muslims are either jihadists or dormant jihadists – moderate, they are not. by Ali Sina, [FaithFreedom.org](http://FaithFreedom.org), March 14, 2010 (read more if you like at the site listed) Ali Sina is a de-converted Muslim born and raised in the Islamic culture. He has written several books on Islam, has on line debates with top Islamic scholars on the validity of the Koran and Hadith, post many articles, and is an authority of the ins and out of the Islamic culture and history. I suggest you go argue with him, as he is a greater authority on the topic than you have shown yourself. His material is easily found on the net. The list is very long of on line de-converted Muslims that agree with him in their own personal experiences and studies that have come to the same conclusion only said in different words but make the same points as that is why they de-converted to get away from the Islamic cult of death as they want no part of it. There is also a very long list of Islamic preachers (on line) that call for the death of the USA, every Muslim do Jihad, raise up and take arms to kill the infidels, Allah demands Jihad, and many listen to them as Hamas the killed 12 at Ft. Hood, 9/11, and the 5-6 Islamic terrorist acts that happen every day that I have referenced repeatedly. We also have 54 Islamic countries where Islamic Sheria supports the cult of death in all of its barbarous acts, as Saudi and Pakistan that are leading exporters of Jihads to the world at large with Iran being close behind and fighting for first place. How Islam works is on this order, that is the same pattern they have used threw out history for the last 1400 years. Here is the fastest reference and more to come if you like. [http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/011-taqiyya.htm](http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/011-taqiyya.htm) fast summery confirmed on many other sites– “There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, taqiyya and kitman. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam … by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.” Taqiyya - Saying something that isn’t true. Kitman - Lying by omission. “…example of lying is when Muhammad used deception to trick his personal enemies into letting down their guard and exposing themselves to slaughter by pretending to seek peace. This happened in the case of Ka’b bin al-Ashraf (as previously noted) and again later against Usayr ibn Zarim, a surviving leader of the Banu Nadir tribe, which had been evicted from their home in Medina by the Muslims…” Here are some Koran scriptures for back up. Qur’an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can “compel” a Muslim to tell a lie. Qur’an (3:28) – take no friends of outsiders unless to deceive them Qur’an (9:3) – (much of the chapter) ok to break your oath of peace after you gained safe travel from non-believers Qur’an (40:28) - ok to hide your faith with lies Qur’an (2:225) – Allah only judges your heart not your words Qur’an (66:2) – Allah has already broken your oath Qur’an (3:54) - Allah is the best of schemers As far as interpretation goes it is hard core Islamic teaching (under death threat) to NEVER interpret the Koran on your own. Conclusion: To acknowledge the possibility of moderate Muslins that have their own interpretation of the Koran is to prove for fact there are extremist. So you are that skilled, perhaps better than God or Allah, to know a moderate Muslim from an extremist? You want to bet your life on it? You get to loose one time only and the game is over. Just ask the victims of 9/11—OH that is right, they are dead. I say we burn the Koran in open protest to Muslims that we do not buy their Islam crap and lies any longer. NOW, if you would like to reference, or give your opinion, what exactly is a moderate Muslim and how do you know, I would be happy to look at it. Don ---
**Author:** ![qpw3141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6bbea6/32.png) [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/429 "2010-09-02T20:02:02Z")
> [@Don123](#): > > NOW, if you would like to reference, or give your opinion, what exactly is a moderate Muslim and how do you know, I would be happy to look at it. A moderate Muslim is one who lives his life quietly and with consideration for his friends, family and neighbours. (Bit like a moderate Christian, Hindi or Jew, really). You can find them everywhere doing exactly that. Of course, you also get the extremist Muslims who spend their time trying to rubbish religions other than their own and stir up hatred against them. A bit like some Christians, really. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/430 "2010-09-02T20:04:37Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@Uzi](#): > > > > (Osama himself seems to agree) > > Exactly. Osama bin Laden, the zealot whose first targets were other Muslims who did not share his beliefs, chooses to interpret various passages of his scripture in a particular way–and you choose to support him in those efforts. > > It is rather like quoting Richard Butler, Rob Matthews, and Eric Rudolph on the meaning of the Christian scriptures, then deciding that their views are what Billy Graham, Dorothy Day, and Philip Berrigan “really” believed. The difference between the 2 religions, or all of them for that matter, is the level of discord that is actually taught and acted upon. Fred Phelps (official Christian whipping boy) represents the high end of vocal discontent with anything that moves. The politically correct thing to do is say that he doesn’t represent Christianity. But he does represent the extremes of the religion. He’s not mainstream but he’s out there alive and well. Take the example I cited regarding Islam in Indonesia. 50% of the Imams actively preach against other religions. There are schools dedicated to the extreme side of Islam and it is from these schools that terrorists come from. When comparing extreme Islam and extreme Christianity there are elements that stand out which makes violence more likely with Islam. The concepts of “brotherhood” creates an us versus them mentality that is made worse by the idea of reward through martyrdom. The fire is kept burning bright by 5 daily reminders of religious commitment. The difference is that while the Fred Phelp’s Christian extremists of the world exist, they aren’t statistically likely to create a terrorist group. The opposite is true with Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/431 "2010-09-02T20:14:03Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@Uzi](#): > > > > (Osama himself seems to agree) > > Exactly. Osama bin Laden, the zealot whose first targets were other Muslims who did not share his beliefs, chooses to interpret various passages of his scripture in a particular way–and you choose to support him in those efforts. This is my point. He interprets it in a particular way. He doesn’t have to move the bar much to do so even if he is moving the bar at all. Just because the majority believe otherwise doesn’t make them right and him wrong. Unless you think that god’s plan is determined by the majority’s vote and actions. In which case you’ve made a good case for there not being a god. If my new religion consisted of: “Be kind to each other” “Don’t be an ass” I’m sure someone could figure out how this says to hate others and be an ass. But, it would be a very long reach for them to do so. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/432 "2010-09-02T20:32:11Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Just because the majority believe otherwise doesn’t make them right and him wrong. No. Nor does it make him right and them wrong. But it does mean that if you are claiming that “Islam” says or does one thing or another when large numbers of Muslims disagree, then you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![bbart4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/51bf81/32.png) [@bbart4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bbart4)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/433 "2010-09-02T20:33:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Take the example I cited regarding Islam in Indonesia. 50% of the Imams actively preach against other religions. There are schools dedicated to the extreme side of Islam and it is from these schools that terrorists come from. When comparing extreme Islam and extreme Christianity there are elements that stand out which makes violence more likely with Islam. The concepts of “brotherhood” creates an us versus them mentality that is made worse by the idea of reward through martyrdom. The fire is kept burning bright by 5 daily reminders of religious commitment. I would even doubt that claim if you read my cites upthread. Despite an overwhelming majority, Islamic parties lost big time last year in Indonesia, in fact, they never even gained significant number of seats in the parliament even at the heights of their popularity. Heck, Indonesia even had a female president a few years ago. Just imagine if just, say 10%, of the whole muslim pop. have the mentality as you suggest they subscribe to, do you think the world would be likt it is today? ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/434 "2010-09-02T20:34:48Z")
> [@Don123](#): > > > [@user\_hostile](#): > > > > **Don123** , just for your own edification–why don’t you read the Koran cover-to-cover and make up your own mind, rather than let a web-site decide it for you, okay? Challenge yourself–in spite of themselves, those crazy Muslims built one hell of civilization in the late 1000’s and beyond; while the Europeans were still feasting on mud. More importantly, they preserved quite a bit of Western history, science, and culture that we would have otherwise lost. 'Cause as it stands right now, nobody’s really paying attention to you or your arguments–people want to debate somebody who has something to say; they don’t want to debate a proxy via website. Come back in a week and tell us what you discovered. 🙂 > > However if I do not quote references you will ask for them, and if not supplied some will start their name calling contest to discredit my studies. So now you get to go argue with my references. Good luck to you, try another game to play. > > You said: > > Muslims built one hell of civilization in the late 1000’s and beyond; while the Europeans were still feasting on mud. More importantly, they preserved quite a bit of Western history, science, and culture that we would have otherwise lost. > > What I am showing here is a direct connection to Muslim terrorist behavior to the Koran and Hadith. Sorry if you do not like it, but so far you have yet to put any meat on the table other wise. > > Good luck to you and your studies. > > Don > [@](#): > > I have read the Koran cover to cover 3 times, and the bible cover to cover at least 10 times from my youth. So thank you for the advice. I stand corrected. Thanks for answering. > [@](#): > > \*More importantly, they preserved quite a bit of Western history, science, and culture that we would have otherwise lost. \* > > This is nothing but propaganda to the hilt that I have argued against many times before. Perhaps on another thread I will address it again. Then you can argue those reference and see how far you can get. “Propaganda”? Come on **Don123** , you’re smarter than that! Quite a bit of mathematics came from those Islamic caliphates. They were essential for the medieval European scholars who wanted to reboot their mud-eating education system. Where do you think we got the zero from? Yeah, okay India, but those Caliphating mathematicians quickly grasped the meaning and were quick to implement it into their world, and we in turn imported. Have you ever been to an Islamic country BTW? I have. In fact, one Muslim woman who had a little too much to drink gave me a nice kiss on the lips. That’s the kinda jihad I’m looking for! Oh yeah! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/435 "2010-09-02T20:43:00Z")
> [@Don123](#): > > Just ask the victims of 9/11—OH that is right, they are dead. You realize that at least 58 of the victims of 9/11 were themselves Muslims, that there were Muslim passengers on those planes, that there were Muslim employees in the towers and Muslim servicemembers in the Pentagon, and that there were Muslim police, firemen, and EMTs who were sent there that way. You also realize that most Islamic terrorism is against other Muslims. You realize all this, right? You don’t know much about Islam, and what’s worse is that most of what you know about Islam isn’t true. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/436 "2010-09-02T20:49:51Z")
Here’s a few more [quotes] ([http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note\_id=139069028434](http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=139069028434)) about Islam, from one of our great statesman: [QUOTE=Sarah Palin] We are not at war with Islam. This is a war within Islam, where a small minority of violent killers seeks to impose their view on the vast majority of Muslims who want the same things all of us want: economic opportunity, education, and the chance to build a better life for themselves and their families. [/QUOTE] and [QUOTE=Sarah Palin] Australia rightly reminds us to keep our eye on Southeast Asia, where Indonesia has proved that Islam and democracy can co-exist. Indonesia has fought extremism inside its own border and is consolidating a multi-ethnic democracy that is home to hundreds of millions of Muslims. Those who say Islam and democracy are incompatible insult our friends in Indonesia. [/QUOTE] From Speech in Hong Kong (9/23/09). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/437 "2010-09-02T21:07:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > Exactly. Osama bin Laden, the zealot whose first targets were other Muslims who did not share his beliefs, chooses to interpret various passages of his scripture in a particular way–and you choose to support him in those efforts. > > > > It is rather like quoting Richard Butler, Rob Matthews, and Eric Rudolph on the meaning of the Christian scriptures, then deciding that their views are what Billy Graham, Dorothy Day, and Philip Berrigan “really” believed. > > The difference between the 2 religions, or all of them for that matter, is the level of discord that is actually taught and acted upon. Fred Phelps (official Christian whipping boy) represents the high end of vocal discontent with anything that moves. The politically correct thing to do is say that he doesn’t represent Christianity. But he does represent the extremes of the religion. He’s not mainstream but he’s out there alive and well. So? I have never claimed that Phelps (or Butler or Matthews or Rudolph or Franklin Graham) are not Christians. They are, as you note, at the extremes of the religion. So your straw man about “political correctness” is irrelevant to anything I have said. However, your attempt to flip that around and claim that Islam is some horrendous movement because it also has violent extremists fails on the evidence, as well. In every case where “Islam” is demonstrating violence, it is simply the organizing vehicle to permit people who have been oppressed to react to that oppression or those whose lives have been thrown into chaos to take control of their lives again. In Indonesia, the Philipines, India, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iran, and other countries, Muslims were persecuted or Islam was suppressed. In Europe, immigrants are treated harshly, but they can look around and see that the vast majority of their fellow immigrants are Muslim. In Iraq and Lebanon, the countries are in chaos and the overthrown regimes had made it a point to protect and favor one religious group over another. In Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, and a number of other countries, the governments are corrupt and one strong voice demanding reform is that of the conservative faction of Islam. Since no one in the “Democratic” or “Christian” (or “secular”) West ever worked to alleviate those situations, (and, in too many cases, actively supported the oppressors or even created the problems), then the Fundamentalist Muslims have an easy time getting their message out. > [@Magiver](#): > > Take the example I cited regarding Islam in Indonesia. 50% of the Imams actively preach against other religions. There are schools dedicated to the extreme side of Islam and it is from these schools that terrorists come from. When comparing extreme Islam and extreme Christianity there are elements that stand out which makes violence more likely with Islam. The concepts of “brotherhood” creates an us versus them mentality that is made worse by the idea of reward through martyrdom. The fire is kept burning bright by 5 daily reminders of religious commitment. > > The difference is that while the Fred Phelp’s Christian extremists of the world exist, they aren’t statistically likely to create a terrorist group. The opposite is true with Islam. If it were true that Islam was inherently more likely to produce terrorists, then Northern India should have been the home of terrorism more than 200 years ago, parts of the Philipines should have been wracked by terror for about as long, Indonesia’s terrorist outbreaks should have begun in the 1950s, and the Shah of Iran should have been subjected to ongoing terrorism dating back to 1953. This is not the case. Islamic terrorism arose in the wake of social upheavals in the world that allowed suppressed Muslim groups to recognize that they might be able to become their own masters. Without making any silly claims about a “religion of peace,” it is rather easy to see that the overall violence has less to do with the nature of Islam than it does with the particular situations where violence has broken out. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/438 "2010-09-02T21:51:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The difference is that while the Fred Phelp’s Christian extremists of the world exist, they aren’t statistically likely to create a terrorist group. The opposite is true with Islam. I don’t know about “statistically likely” but [Christian terrorism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism) isn’t exactly unknown, including everyone’s favorite Christian group the [Lord’s Resistance Army](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#Massacres): > [@](#): > > The Lord’s Resistance Army, a cult guerrilla army engaged in an armed rebellion against the Ugandan government, has been accused of using child soldiers and committing numerous crimes against humanity; including massacres, abductions, mutilation, torture, rape, porters and sex slaves. It is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the spokesperson of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the Christian Holy Spirit which the Acholi believe can represent itself in many manifestations. **LRA fighters wear rosary beads and recite passages from the Bible before battle**. Numbers killed are sketchy but the Wiki page suggests a couple of thousand in the last two and half years alone, over 100,000 displaced and well over 10,000 children abducted and forced to fight as soldiers. What terrible things these Christians do… ---
**Author:** ![Don123](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Don123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don123)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/439 "2010-09-02T22:32:52Z")
> [@user\_hostile](#): > > > [@Don123](#): > > > > However if I do not quote references you will ask for them, and if not supplied some will start their name calling contest to discredit my studies. So now you get to go argue with my references. Good luck to you, try another game to play. > > > > You said: > > > > Muslims built one hell of civilization in the late 1000’s and beyond; while the Europeans were still feasting on mud. More importantly, they preserved quite a bit of Western history, science, and culture that we would have otherwise lost. > > > > What I am showing here is a direct connection to Muslim terrorist behavior to the Koran and Hadith. Sorry if you do not like it, but so far you have yet to put any meat on the table other wise. > > > > Good luck to you and your studies. > > > > Don > > I stand corrected. Thanks for answering. > > > [@](#): > > > > \*More importantly, they preserved quite a bit of Western history, science, and culture that we would have otherwise lost. \* > > > > This is nothing but propaganda to the hilt that I have argued against many times before. Perhaps on another thread I will address it again. Then you can argue those reference and see how far you can get. > > “Propaganda”? Come on **Don123** , you’re smarter than that! Quite a bit of mathematics came from those Islamic caliphates. They were essential for the medieval European scholars who wanted to reboot their mud-eating education system. Where do you think we got the zero from? Yeah, okay India, but those Caliphating mathematicians quickly grasped the meaning and were quick to implement it into their world, and we in turn imported. > > Have you ever been to an Islamic country BTW? > > I have. In fact, one Muslim woman who had a little too much to drink gave me a nice kiss on the lips. That’s the kinda jihad I’m looking for! Oh yeah! 🆒 I will have to get back to you (soon I hope) on the Islamic golden age as of right now we are figuring on the best way to burn the Koran, and if we should or not, and who to invite if it happens. Don ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/440 "2010-09-02T22:48:35Z")
> [@Don123](#): > > I will have to get back to you (soon I hope) on the Islamic golden age as of right now we are figuring on the best way to burn the Koran, and if we should or not Do consider, when making that important decision, that by doing so you implicitly forfeit your right to have an apoplectic shit fit any time Muslims, or communists, or students, or the French (the _French !_) burn an American flag for any reason whatsoever without rightly being fingered as a most craven hypocrite. Are you positively sure you want to permanently let go of so recreational an outrage ? Then again, you’ve already got that whole “All of them are intolerant, lock 'em all up !” shtick going, so maybe you’ve already got a contingency anti-cognitive dissonance plan for that eventuality. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891.md?page=23)