# Burning books in the US...'Burn Quran Day' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891 "2010-08-20T17:58:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/701 "2010-09-09T16:19:00Z")
Hmmm. My basic problem is that the guy is burning a book. In my mind, I see a bunch of mouth-breathers standing around a fire going, “We’re teh ignorant! We’re teh stupid! We winz! That’ll show thoz pointy-hedded knowitalls!” As for it being the Koran? Meh. Wouldnt care it the fuel was provided by Bibles as well. The radical Muslims gonna be radicalized by that? Hell, it’s not like 911 happened because of book bonfires. Whatever vile shit they have planned will happen or won’t happen whether some of us burn books or not. Just call the book-burners idiots, cause they are, and move on. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/702 "2010-09-09T16:28:10Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > > > To put it in those terms, a person who is convinced that god wishes them to hate x will, in general, be quite able to draw equal supportive meaning from each of those sentences. > > I agree with that. It doesn’t make them right, though. The text can stand alone and have meaning regardless of how some people want to interpret them. But that’s tantamount to saying “Yes, they interpret it this way, but they are wrong; the correct meaning is this”. But it’s your word against theirs. There is no inherent correct meaning. There’s the intent of the author, but even that may not have been adequately put to paper. Anything else is just guesswork and interpretation; text cannot stand alone once a human has gotten involved. > [@](#): > > All I’m saying is that it is easier to get to C if you don’t have to start from A. > Love-\>Hate-\>Kill Not really. The complications between B and C might well be more complicated than someone who has to go through all three points. It’s not as though all our philosophical ideas can be summed up so easily anyway. Someone might well see a clear, obvious, inherent meaning that leads them from A to B to C, while someone else might well have considerable trouble and much internal debate and uncertainty about just going from B to C. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/703 "2010-09-09T16:34:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > > > It is not my contention that they are the same statement; they have different words, obviously. The second part is right; it is my contention that they are, effectively, the same statement in terms of what meaning people may draw from them. To put it in those terms, a person who is convinced that god wishes them to hate x will, in general, be quite able to draw equal supportive meaning from each of those sentences. > > How do you think the follower of a prophet who willingly died in an act of total sacrifice is viewed in comparison to a warrior prophet who codifies strict adherence to laws he set down? > > Put another way, which one creates an atmosphere more conducive to violence given that all religions have followers of varying degrees of intensity. I would say that, like with words, the examples of prophets (especially given that we only have accounts of those prophets via such texts) are generally long and varied enough that it is as easy with one as it is with the other. I would argue that, even considering that all religions have followers of varying degrees of intensity, that the histories of prophets (including Jesus and Mohammed) are effectively neutral so far as supporting or negating an atmosphere conducive to violence. You get what you put in. The same, I would say, is also true the other way around; neither of the two offered prophets is more or less likely to create an atmosphere conducive to violence \*against \*their followers, as well as amongst them. Again, you get what you put in. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/704 "2010-09-09T16:46:10Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Not really. The complications between B and C might well be more complicated than someone who has to go through all three points. It’s not as though all our philosophical ideas can be summed up so easily anyway. Someone might well see a clear, obvious, inherent meaning that leads them from A to B to C, while someone else might well have considerable trouble and much internal debate and uncertainty about just going from B to C. So, you’d agree that penalties for murder should be eliminated as people are going to kill no matter what is written down in the legal code? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/705 "2010-09-09T16:49:12Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I would argue that, even considering that all religions have followers of varying degrees of intensity, that the histories of prophets (including Jesus and Mohammed) are effectively neutral so far as supporting or negating an atmosphere conducive to violence. You get what you put in. The same, I would say, is also true the other way around; neither of the two offered prophets is more or less likely to create an atmosphere conducive to violence \*against \*their followers, as well as amongst them. Again, you get what you put in. I don’t follow the logic of your point at all. There is no historic reference to Jesus killing people for any reason. He never wrote down, or dictated anything. Those who recorded his teachings did not reference anything remotely hostile in regards to actions others should take. This is in stark contrast to Mohamed’s life as a warrior and his fairly strict codification of his religion. This would by default create a greater proportion of violence with those who represent the extreme end of the religion. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/706 "2010-09-09T16:52:24Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > > > Not really. The complications between B and C might well be more complicated than someone who has to go through all three points. It’s not as though all our philosophical ideas can be summed up so easily anyway. Someone might well see a clear, obvious, inherent meaning that leads them from A to B to C, while someone else might well have considerable trouble and much internal debate and uncertainty about just going from B to C. > > So, you’d agree that penalties for murder should be eliminated as people are going to kill no matter what is written down in the legal code? Certainly, people will murder no matter what is written down in the legal code. The arrest, periods of confinement, criminal trial, incarceration, or perhaps death penalty depending on location, as written out in that code, are pretty damn good at it, though. Certainly the words themselves don’t mean very much, if that’s your point. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/707 "2010-09-09T16:57:56Z")
One should remember that when Mohamed arrived on the scene, there was no law at all. None whatsoever. There was only tribal/clan loyalties and blood feuds. That one man could change that is little short of miraculous. Remember as well that the Koran was originally a recitation, Mohamed could neither read nor write. The fact that he presented a recitation composed in an exquisite and eloquent form of Arabic, the kind of Arabic only known to scholars and poets was another factor that astounded his contemporaries, it would be as if Joe, the guy from the Parts Dept. suddenly began spouting sonnets equal to Shakespeare, having not graduated from high school. Sonnets he couldn’t write down. I would urge several of our less informed correspondents to find a book called \*A Short History of Islam \*by Ms Karen Armstrong, a woman of profound and lucid intelligence. Naturally, it isn’t comprehensive, but it has references and sources enough to satisfy any curiosity it inspires. Fight your own ignorance, and then come fight mine. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/708 "2010-09-09T16:59:07Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > The arrest, periods of confinement, criminal trial, incarceration, or perhaps death penalty depending on location, as written out in that code, are pretty damn good at it, though. Certainly the words themselves don’t mean very much, if that’s your point. Well what do you think the information in these holy books are telling their followers about penalties and rewards? What you are saying is that no one actually believes what is in their holy books or the chances of burning in hell or being in heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/709 "2010-09-09T16:59:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > > > I would argue that, even considering that all religions have followers of varying degrees of intensity, that the histories of prophets (including Jesus and Mohammed) are effectively neutral so far as supporting or negating an atmosphere conducive to violence. You get what you put in. The same, I would say, is also true the other way around; neither of the two offered prophets is more or less likely to create an atmosphere conducive to violence \*against \*their followers, as well as amongst them. Again, you get what you put in. > > I don’t follow the logic of your point at all. There is no historic reference to Jesus killing people for any reason. He never wrote down, or dictated anything. Those who recorded his teachings did not reference anything remotely hostile in regards to actions others should take. This is in stark contrast to Mohamed’s life as a warrior and his fairly strict codification of his religion. This would by default create a greater proportion of violence with those who represent the extreme end of the religion. No, it wouldn’t. You presume not only that your interpretation is correct, but that others would share your interpretation. Perhaps one reason you don’t follow the logic of my point is that it relies, essentially, on illogical actions. We generally take what we get out of a text from what we bring to it, not the text itself; our interpretations are hugely affected by our personal biases. It doesn’t matter whether one book is more violent than the other. It doesn’t matter, to go to the greatest extreme, if we have on one hand a prophet whose sole words are “love people” and on the other a prophet whose words are “kill the fuckers”; if you are so disposed to violence, you will be able to take support from the former, and if disposed to peace take support from the latter. The lengthier the books, the more justifications may be created from it, irregardless of content. What matters is the interpretation. And the interpretation is not bound by the text, but by the reader. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/710 "2010-09-09T17:02:43Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > > > The arrest, periods of confinement, criminal trial, incarceration, or perhaps death penalty depending on location, as written out in that code, are pretty damn good at it, though. Certainly the words themselves don’t mean very much, if that’s your point. > > Well what do you think the information in these holy books are telling their followers about penalties and rewards? What you are saying is that no one actually believes what is in their holy books or the chances of burning in hell or being in heaven. Again, I think that the words mean very little; a person convinced of their moral rightness will happily read “do this, and you’ll go to hell” as “Yes, please, more of that behaviour and it’s fluffy clouds and a harp for you!”. As with the legal code, the words mean very little, since they are up to interpretation. Now, where they differ is that an interpretation of the law is enforced. You may well believe you have murdered someone in a perfectly legal way, but that will not stop those friendly police officers from giving you some nice new handwear. With religion, it’s trickier; actions of the kind you mention occur after death, so we don’t really have anyone to point to as examples - except, of course, those examples written down in those holy books, but of course that has the same problem. If we could point to actual people who we could see had some kind of eternal reward or punishment, probably things would be different. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/711 "2010-09-09T17:30:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > One should remember that when Mohamed arrived on the scene, there was no law at all. None whatsoever. There was only tribal/clan loyalties and blood feuds. That one man could change that is little short of miraculous. Remember as well that the Koran was originally a recitation, Mohamed could neither read nor write. The fact that he presented a recitation composed in an exquisite and eloquent form of Arabic, the kind of Arabic only known to scholars and poets was another factor that astounded his contemporaries, it would be as if Joe, the guy from the Parts Dept. suddenly began spouting sonnets equal to Shakespeare, having not graduated from high school. Sonnets he couldn’t write down. > > I would urge several of our less informed correspondents to find a book called \*A Short History of Islam \*by Ms Karen Armstrong, a woman of profound and lucid intelligence. Naturally, it isn’t comprehensive, but it has references and sources enough to satisfy any curiosity it inspires. > > Fight your own ignorance, and then come fight mine. Mohamed worked in the same feudal/tribal environment that Jesus worked in. He enforced his message at the point of a sword. Jesus gave his life for the sins of man. Mohamed wouldn’t be the first leader to win over people with flowery words and Jesus won’t be the last to lead by example. None of this changes the concept that words and actions mean things and people will follow them. When you kill to gain power and codify this as part of the process of enlightenment then that is how the most extreme of followers will behave. The difference is that while Reverend Jackass is burning a book, those who object to the mere presence of the Reverend’s book killed 10 doctor’s recently whose crime was humanitarian medical service. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/712 "2010-09-09T17:35:50Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Again, I think that the words mean very little… what else do followers have to go on than the words and actions of their prophet? Do you think the people chanting “Death to Christians” over this are kidding? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/713 "2010-09-09T17:40:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > > > Again, I think that the words mean very little… > > what else do followers have to go on than the words and actions of their prophet? > > Do you think the people chanting “Death to Christians” over this are kidding? Their beliefs. Their innermost view of how the world is. Their life experiences. And, of course, the words and actions of their prophet. But their opinion of what those words meant, and what those actions were for, are of course affected by those other things too. No, I do not believe that the people chanting “Death to Christians” over this are kidding. Do _you_ think I think that? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/714 "2010-09-09T17:52:42Z")
So, what’s your plan? We either kill them all, or find some way to live together. And there’s a lot of them. Really, a whole bunch. Forcibly convert them? But you’re against that, or at least when they do it you’re against it. So what is to be done, then? By the way, despite the similarity in spelling “blood feud” and “feudal” have very, very different meanings. And insisting on a similar state of lawlessness between a Palestine firmly under Roman Empire rule and Arabia is…oh, dear, how to be polite about this…not historically supportable. Yes, that will have to do. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/715 "2010-09-09T17:57:49Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > ] Their beliefs. Their innermost view of how the world is. Their life experiences. > > And, of course, the words and actions of their prophet. But their opinion of what those words meant, and what those actions were for, are of course affected by those other things too. > > No, I do not believe that the people chanting “Death to Christians” over this are kidding. Do _you_ think I think that? It appears as if you’re arguing that there is no relationship between the words and actions of Mohamed and the reaction to the burning of Korans. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/716 "2010-09-09T18:03:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > > > ] Their beliefs. Their innermost view of how the world is. Their life experiences. > > > > And, of course, the words and actions of their prophet. But their opinion of what those words meant, and what those actions were for, are of course affected by those other things too. > > > > No, I do not believe that the people chanting “Death to Christians” over this are kidding. Do _you_ think I think that? > > It appears as if you’re arguing that there is no relationship between the words and actions of Mohamed and the reaction to the burning of Korans. Yes, that’s correct. I’d say that there is a relationship between the _interpretation_ of the words and actions of Mohammed and the reaction to the burning of Korans. Not to mention a relationship to interpretations of the words and actions of Mohammed directly _to_ the burning of Korans. And, of course, to the reaction to the reaction to the burning of Korans, to go the other way, as exemplified in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/717 "2010-09-09T18:05:56Z")
I am totally baffled by RT’s response. When I read books, especially non-fiction, I try to understand the author’s meaning and gain some insight into what his message is. Yes, I bring my life experience along for the ride, but there is no way that I can warp black to white and white to black unless I clearly intend to misinterpret that message. And I’m open to others pointing out my errors in that interpretation. I believe that all people have the same basic needs and desires tempered by the culture they live within. Most just want to live their lives in peace. Yet, some people find it easier to hate and would take every opportunity to do so. Having a god given reason to do so makes it that much easier the same if there were no laws and consequences for breaking them. You don’t leave your car unlocked with the keys in the ignition to stop the professional car thief, but to prevent the person who wants to joyride or might spontaneously succumb to temptation. Those are the sorts of people who will be influenced by words one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/718 "2010-09-09T18:11:33Z")
> [@](#): > > It appears as if you’re arguing that there is no relationship between the words and actions of Mohamed and the reaction to the burning of Korans. So you’re plan, then, is to keep telling them they are a bunch of rabid baboons following an evil cult? What could possibly go wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/719 "2010-09-09T18:11:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, what’s your plan? We either kill them all, or find some way to live together. And there’s a lot of them. Really, a whole bunch. Forcibly convert them? But you’re against that, or at least when they do it you’re against it. So what is to be done, then? do. This is the point. There isn’t a great deal I can do. It’s a Moslem problem that only Moslems can solve. We’re just watching. That some of us end up burning korans in frustration or stupidity or whatever is just something Moslems are going to have to accept too. If the burnings result in murderous riots in Moslem countries that will simply reinforce that the problem is within Islam. Maybe I’m wrong, but it appears to me that too often people pretend that Islamic terrorism is somehow unrelated to Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/720 "2010-09-09T18:16:36Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I am totally baffled by RT’s response. When I read books, especially non-fiction, I try to understand the author’s meaning and gain some insight into what his message is. > > Yes, I bring my life experience along for the ride, but there is no way that I can warp black to white and white to black unless I clearly intend to misinterpret that message. And I’m open to others pointing out my errors in that interpretation. How do you know that you do not make such large mistakes in interpretation? How do you know that your biases do not affect even your acceptance of others pointing out potential mistakes? You’re baffled by my response; i’m baffled that someone could rule out potential flaws, even big flaws, so completely. > [@](#): > > I believe that all people have the same basic needs and desires tempered by the culture they live within. Most just want to live their lives in peace. Yet, some people find it easier to hate and would take every opportunity to do so. Having a god given reason to do so makes it that much easier the same if there were no laws and consequences for breaking them. Yes, it most certainly does. Which is why people look for those god given reasons, set out with the intent to find the answers they’re looking for, and, inevitably, find them. > [@](#): > > You don’t leave your car unlocked with the keys in the ignition to stop the professional car thief, but to prevent the person who wants to joyride or might spontaneously succumb to temptation. Those are the sorts of people who will be influenced by words one way or the other. A person who is apt to do one thing spontaneously is apt to be spontaneous in general. A person who succumbs to temptation may not simply wait for chances to sate their desire to come along, but actively (and perhaps unconsciously) be on the lookout for them. It’s not simply a matter of the extremes seeing what they want to see, while the rest of us more rational types understand and recognise our own biases. To the contrary; it’s the person who thinks he is most in control of his own mind that is most at risk of missing something, whether through arrogance at our own rationality in comparison, or simply through the mistake believing ability is ultimate ability. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891.md?page=37)