# Burning books in the US...'Burn Quran Day' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891 "2010-08-20T17:58:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/961 "2010-09-22T02:18:40Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > I clearly showed that the changes were mine. In the future, keep such changes outside the quote tags. This is not negotiable. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/962 "2010-09-22T05:17:01Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > But he only did it because God told him to, so really it’s God’s fault. > > As much fun as this “Both religions have a long history of violent conquest but Islam is somehow worse because Mohammed himself did it” argument is, it’s getting a bit tired and remains totally irrelevant. Followers of any religion or cause have never had any problem using it as an excuse to do bad things (or indeed good things). Saying that “Yeah, but Mohammed did it and therefore his followers are more likely to do it too” has no basis in any form of reality. That is completely illogical. The word “follower” means one who follows. To suggest that someone would not subscribe to the words or emulate the deeds of a leader is patently absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/963 "2010-09-22T05:24:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Gyrate](#): > > > > But he only did it because God told him to, so really it’s God’s fault. > > > > As much fun as this “Both religions have a long history of violent conquest but Islam is somehow worse because Mohammed himself did it” argument is, it’s getting a bit tired and remains totally irrelevant. Followers of any religion or cause have never had any problem using it as an excuse to do bad things (or indeed good things). Saying that “Yeah, but Mohammed did it and therefore his followers are more likely to do it too” has no basis in any form of reality. > > That is completely illogical. The word “follower” means one who follows. To suggest that someone would not subscribe to the words or emulate the deeds of a leader is patently absurd. :rolleyes: No, it just means that many people don’t do what they claim to be doing. You’d have a hard time finding many people who actually try to imitate the founder of their religion instead of mouthing the words and doing something completely different. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/964 "2010-09-22T05:28:28Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > That is completely illogical. The word “follower” means one who follows. To suggest that someone would not subscribe to the words or emulate the deeds of a leader is patently absurd. > > :rolleyes: No, it just means that many people don’t do what they claim to be doing. You’d have a hard time finding many people who actually try to imitate the founder of their religion instead of mouthing the words and doing something completely different. I don’t have a hard time finding people emulating their religious leader of preference. ---
**Author:** ![psikeyhackr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@psikeyhackr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psikeyhackr)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/965 "2010-09-22T06:09:03Z")
Physics is the Devil. We should have a campaign to burn physics books on 9/11/11. 😃 [http://www.public-action.com/911/jmcm/physics\_1.html](http://www.public-action.com/911/jmcm/physics_1.html) psik ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/966 "2010-09-22T06:41:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > :rolleyes: No, it just means that many people don’t do what they claim to be doing. You’d have a hard time finding many people who actually try to imitate the founder of their religion instead of mouthing the words and doing something completely different. > > I don’t have a hard time finding people emulating their religious leader of preference. I rather doubt that. Seen many Christians give away everything they own and forgive everyone, no matter how brutal? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/967 "2010-09-22T08:33:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > I don’t have a hard time finding people emulating their religious leader of preference. > > I rather doubt that. Seen many Christians give away everything they own and forgive everyone, no matter how brutal? Ah, Father Der Trihs, you have come to teach the message of Jesus. The floor is yours. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/968 "2010-09-22T09:02:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > I rather doubt that. Seen many Christians give away everything they own and forgive everyone, no matter how brutal? > > Ah, Father Der Trihs, you have come to teach the message of Jesus. > > The floor is yours. Translation: No, you haven’t seen many Christians emulate the founder of Christianity. Which demonstrates the (obvious) wrongness of your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Doxy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Doxy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doxy)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/969 "2010-09-22T11:41:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > Ah, Father Der Trihs, you have come to teach the message of Jesus. > > > > The floor is yours. > > Translation: No, you haven’t seen many Christians emulate the founder of Christianity. Which demonstrates the (obvious) wrongness of your argument. Several years ago I met a woman that I consider to be the most sincere, honest, kind, compassionate, forthright, generous, genuine and upstanding person I’ve ever known. She is love wrapped up in a bit of skin and hair. In the 15 years we’ve been friends I’ve never once heard her disparage another person. I’ve never once heard her speak ill of anyone. She is a family doctor and donates many hours to a clinic where she does not get any form of payment other than the “thank-yous” of patients. In other words, she is an exemplary living example of Christ’s message. A couple of years into our friendship we were talking and the topic of religion came up. I mentioned to her what church I attended and asked her where she went. Imagine my surprise when she said she didn’t attend ANY church. That she was, in fact, not a Christian at all. She is a Humanist. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/970 "2010-09-22T15:03:17Z")
Clearly, there is another factor here, one that makes Muslims uniquely fanatical in their obedience to their holy text. Sunni and Shia often stage elaborate hoaxes to disguise this fact, even to the point of pretending to have violent conflicts with each other, but this is only a ruse. Sufi mysticism is often praised by the ignorant for what appears to be a gentle and pacifistic nature, but **Magiver** isn’t fooled, he knows better. If only we could isolate this factor that makes Muslilms a unique exception in the navel-bearing world. Could it be…_Satan!?_ ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/971 "2010-09-22T15:26:14Z")
> [@Doxy](#): > > Imagine my surprise when she said she didn’t attend ANY church. That she was, in fact, not a Christian at all. She is a Humanist. Why would you be surprised? Are you saying that you expect Christians to act like Christ? According to my theory, I’d expect them to try and do that. You are disagreeing with that. So, why the surprise? You agree then that Muslims would try to emulate Muhammad and would be surprised if they didn’t? [QUOTE=elucidator] Could it be…Satan!? [/QUOTE] Actually Satan does factor into the Quran: [Satanic Verses](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_Verses) > [@](#): > > Clearly, there is another factor here, one that makes Muslims uniquely fanatical in their obedience to their holy text. I certainly don’t say they are anymore fanatical (other than cultural differences and other factors that **Tomndebb** has suggested) than anyone else all things being equal. I’m just saying that the book gives permission for actions that we would consider abhorrent. And when people do those things that are permitted in the book, we shouldn’t always put it down to other factors. I’ve heard it said on this board, where I’m sure you been a part of those discussions, where Christians claim that Christ is a large part of their lives and they couldn’t live without him. How can you not agree that they would do things based upon the only source they have for what Christ said and did which is the bible? Why are Muslims any different? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/972 "2010-09-22T16:03:50Z")
Because that’s all you got. And it requires you to brush aside Koranic injunctions that demand respect and admiration for Jewish and Christian traditions, that demand that the People of the Book receive a special reverence from devout Muslims. I have only a smattering of knowledge of the Koran and _hadith_, you appear to have even less, yet demand a respect for your authority that you do not substantiate. Do you read Arabic? That would only be a start. The Koran was written in a classical, scholarly Arabic that has largely vanished, save for the Koran. A rough parallel in English would be more obscure to the modern reader than Shakespeare, a bit less than Chaucer. Can you offer us any expertise on the subject, an expertise that would compel a reasonable man like myself to defer to your opinions? As for the Satanic Verses, from your own citation: > [@](#): > > …Muslim scholars consider the chain of narrators in the hadith to be problematic , and therefore the whole story is considered doubtful… If you are seeking to impress us with the depth of your Islamic scholarship, you are off to a slow start. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/973 "2010-09-22T16:46:10Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Because that’s all you got. And it requires you to brush aside Koranic injunctions that demand respect and admiration for Jewish and Christian traditions, that demand that the People of the Book receive a special reverence from devout Muslims. . Those Koranic injunctions are in conflict with the deeds of Mohammad as are the versus you ignore that specify violence. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/974 "2010-09-22T16:54:04Z")
Let me see if I have this right: you are accusing me of selectively choosing those verses which support my case, and ignoring those that do not? Have I got that right? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/975 "2010-09-22T17:01:15Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Let me see if I have this right: you are accusing me of selectively choosing those verses which support my case, and ignoring those that do not? Have I got that right? You left out the prophet who had a habit of making people dead. Do as I say (sometimes) and not as I do is a weak selling point for your argument. Do you deny that radical Islam carriers out violent acts such as 9/11 specifically invoking God? Do you Deny that cartoonist, writers and directors have been murdered in the name of God? Do you deny fatwas are routinely issued calling for the death of people who insult or in some way defame Islam? Sure looks like the radical side of Islam is more violent than the radical version of other religions. ---
**Author:** ![Doxy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Doxy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doxy)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/976 "2010-09-22T17:09:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Let me see if I have this right: you are accusing me of selectively choosing those verses which support my case, and ignoring those that do not? Have I got that right? **Putting on my Baseball Announcer Hat** "Here comes the wind-up… " ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/977 "2010-09-22T17:29:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Because that’s all you got. And it requires you to brush aside Koranic injunctions that demand respect and admiration for Jewish and Christian traditions, that demand that the People of the Book receive a special reverence from devout Muslims. Half the people on this planet are not ‘people of the book’. Where do they stand? I’ve asked before and not received an answer. > [@](#): > > I have only a smattering of knowledge of the Koran and _hadith_, you appear to have even less, yet demand a respect for your authority that you do not substantiate. I have posted quotes and links to the relevant material. You have posted nothing but your opinion. You do know the difference, right? > [@](#): > > Do you read Arabic? The majority of people who are Muslims don’t read Arabic. They follow the translations like everyone else does. And oddly enough, those that do read Arabic tend to be the ones who are the fanatics. Do only have the ‘light’ version of the Quran to peruse? > [@](#): > > Can you offer us any expertise on the subject, an expertise that would compel a reasonable man like myself to defer to your opinions? What, that god’s wishes, as dictated from the angel Gabriel to Muhammad are expected to be followed? Again this isn’t some random guy you meet on the street telling someone to act in a certain way, it is god. What baffles me is that people are shocked when some of the people do act that way and can’t attribute it to the religion rather than some other external factor. > [@](#): > > As for the Satanic Verses, from your own citation: > > > [@](#): > > > > …Muslim scholars consider the chain of narrators in the hadith to be problematic , and therefore the whole story is considered doubtful… > > If you are seeking to impress us with the depth of your Islamic scholarship, you are off to a slow start. I was making an aside that Satan was involved. The text is in the Quran and is counter to Muhammad’s assertion that there is only one god. Either you reach the rational conclusion that Muhammad was making the whole religion up, or, as the scholars are doing, you have to explain the texts away as they are not original to Muhammad or Satan tricked him into saying them. Frankly, I’m getting the distinct impression that people here have never even read part of the Quran and are basing their comments using their cultural biases that all people are the same (they are) and want the similar outcomes (they don’t). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/978 "2010-09-22T17:35:19Z")
How many Iraqis are dead due to the military actions of a predominately Christian nation? Somewhere north of one hundred thousand, by estimates. If your alter ego of a Muslim nation claims that this proves that Christianity is a violent religion, how do you respond? If you piously intone that there is no biblical foundation for such violence, he’s going to point to a huge pile of Muslim corpses and say “So?”. So, God didn’t tell you to, but you did it anyway, this is the way of a superior civilization? Does the Scripture say “Turn the other cheek, and then knife him?” How is our violence morally superior to theirs? Are our victims less dead? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/979 "2010-09-22T17:51:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > How many Iraqis are dead due to the military actions of a predominately Christian nation? Somewhere north of one hundred thousand, by estimates. If your alter ego of a Muslim nation claims that this proves that Christianity is a violent religion, how do you respond? If you piously intone that there is no biblical foundation for such violence, he’s going to point to a huge pile of Muslim corpses and say “So?”. So, God didn’t tell you to, but you did it anyway, this is the way of a superior civilization? Does the Scripture say “Turn the other cheek, and then knife him?” > > How is our violence morally superior to theirs? Are our victims less dead? Intent. Every civilized nation. and even some not some civilized nations make a distinction between shooting someone on a battle field and walking into a grocery store and shooting a stranger. Substitute things that explode for guns and that should clear up the moral quagmire that you’re trying to create. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/980 "2010-09-22T18:00:08Z")
I’m sorry, I forgot to include the word “civilian”. Does that help you any? Huge numbers of the Islamic world believe, on regretably good evidence, that America is at war with Islam. They are wrong, of course, and we men of good will are anxious to convince them otherwise. Thanks for your help, guys. But you’ve done quite enough to promote peace and good will to mankind. Take a break. Go fishing. Have a nice cuppa. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891.md?page=50)