# Burning books in the US...'Burn Quran Day' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891 "2010-08-20T17:58:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/981 "2010-09-22T18:03:22Z")
Is Christianity the motivation behind killing Iraqis? Can you find anything that Jesus said and did that would support these actions? If so, then you’d have a case for our actions being done for religious purposes. I don’t think that is a good example, though. Not everything a Christian and Muslim does is because of religion. Muslims do start and participate in wars outside of their religion. Christianity also has that render under Caesar get out of jail and act like a douche clause (thank Christ) that allows them to follow what the state wants them to do whereas Islam doesn’t. What I’m saying is that there are passages in both books, more so in the Quran that allow followers to use them as the excuse to do abhorrent actions. My examples are guys like Osama who directly quotes passages that confirm his actions. He is emulating his prophet and fighting like his prophet would. When someone says, “What would Muhammad do”, I’d point them to Osama. If someone asked the same about Jesus, I couldn’t point them to Fred Phelps as an example. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/982 "2010-09-22T18:26:03Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > …Half the people on this planet are not ‘people of the book’. Where do they stand? I’ve asked before and not received an answer… Well, that can only be because the answer is so destructive to our case that we refuse to talk about it. Or that we don’t know, or that its pretty much irrelevant. I suspect its similar to the knotty problem Christian theologians have with the whole “pagan/heathen” problem or when Augustine was trying to come up with a logic that would get Aristotle into Heaven. Are you claiming that the lack of answer somehow makes you right? Or are you simply offering a distraction to change the focus to where you are more comfortable? > [@](#): > > …I have posted quotes and links to the relevant material. You have posted nothing but your opinion. You do know the difference, right?.. If your citation from Wikipedia on the Satanic verses are any indication, you don’t know Koran from _hadith_. It pretty important. A very rough parallel would be comparing _hadith_ to scriptural sources like the Gnostic gospels: important to scholars, interesting, but not part of the accepted canon. (For good reason, some of the stuff in the Gospel of Thomas would make my dear Methodist granny faint dead away…) > [@](#): > > …The majority of people who are Muslims don’t read Arabic. They follow the translations like everyone else does. And oddly enough, those that do read Arabic tend to be the ones who are the fanatics. Do only have the ‘light’ version of the Quran to peruse?.. Wasn’t talking about them, I was asking about you. Its not that I claim a deep and encompassing knowledge of Islamic religion, its that I don’t really believe that you do, that your information base is more vast than mine own. > [@](#): > > …What, that god’s wishes, as dictated from the angel Gabriel to Muhammad are expected to be followed? Again this isn’t some random guy you meet on the street telling someone to act in a certain way, it is god. What baffles me is that people are shocked when some of the people do act that way and can’t attribute it to the religion rather than some other external factor… You are baffled that people don’t agree with you? Perhaps because you are wrong? > [@](#): > > I… was making an aside that Satan was involved. The text is in the Quran and is counter to Muhammad’s assertion that there is only one god. Either you reach the rational conclusion that Muhammad was making the whole religion up, or, as the scholars are doing, you have to explain the texts away as they are not original to Muhammad or Satan tricked him into saying them… The verses are not in the Koran, but a part of the _hadith_. That may appear to you to be a minor distinction. It is not. > [@](#): > > …Frankly, I’m getting the distinct impression that people here have never even read part of the Quran and are basing their comments using their cultural biases that all people are the same (they are) and want the similar outcomes (they don’t). I see. So you are offering your own vast scholarship as authoritative? Which would be what, exactly, since you apparently cannot distinguish between Koran and _hadith_? You do know the most basic stuff, right? Between Shia, Sunni, and Sufi? A “Twelver” as compared to a “Sevener”? Before I sit at your feet and take notes, perhaps you could astound me with some support for your claims of extraordinary expertise? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/983 "2010-09-22T18:32:38Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Is Christianity the motivation behind killing Iraqis?.. Of course not. But it can appear so to an ignorant Muslim. They make distinctions we don’t make. We make war on Iraq, our ignorant brother may say “well, Americans don’t like Sunni.” But then we are almost equally hostile to Iran, which is predominately Shia. And we go nuts when someone tries to open a community center from Sufi Islamic principles. Well, hell, we hate Shia, we hate Sunni, we hate Sufi. What are they to think but that we hate Islam? But thanks for your help, perhaps your words of peace and understanding will be widely circulated in the Islamic world, that should help things along. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/984 "2010-09-22T18:55:55Z")
Just for the record, as a flag-waving, red blooded, All American radical lefty, I swear by the spirit of Thomas Paine that there is nothing more un-American than burning a book. Any book. Any where. At any time. For any reason. I have absolutely no sacred text to base that upon. Don’t need it. Worse, it is contrary to the will of Cecil. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/985 "2010-09-22T19:24:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > > [@elucidator](#): > > > > How many Iraqis are dead due to the military actions of a predominately Christian nation? Somewhere north of one hundred thousand, by estimates. If your alter ego of a Muslim nation claims that this proves that Christianity is a violent religion, how do you respond? If you piously intone that there is no biblical foundation for such violence, he’s going to point to a huge pile of Muslim corpses and say “So?”. So, God didn’t tell you to, but you did it anyway, this is the way of a superior civilization? Does the Scripture say “Turn the other cheek, and then knife him?” > > > > How is our violence morally superior to theirs? Are our victims less dead? > > Intent. Every civilized nation. and even some not some civilized nations make a distinction between shooting someone on a battle field and walking into a grocery store and shooting a stranger. Substitute things that explode for guns and that should clear up the moral quagmire that you’re trying to create. And if we showed any concern over casually killing any Iraqi who comes within reach, you might have a point; but we don’t. We ARE the ones who do the equivalent of walking into grocery stores and shooting strangers. > [@Uzi](#): > > Is Christianity the motivation behind killing Iraqis? Can you find anything that Jesus said and did that would support these actions? Christianity was one of the motives, yes. There’s plenty of Christian hatred of Islam in America, it was ordered by a leader who thought he was working for God, it did allow American Christian missionaries to push Christianity there, and it was supported in part by Christian apocalyptics who wanted to protect Israel so as fulfill Biblical prophecy and bring on the End Times and the Second Coming. As for what Christ said, that’s besides the point; Christianity has little to do with Christ besides the name. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/986 "2010-09-22T19:31:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, that can only be because the answer is so destructive to our case that we refuse to talk about it. Or that we don’t know, or that its pretty much irrelevant. I’ve already given examples of what happens to Hindus under Muslim rule eg. Pakistan. > [@](#): > > I suspect its similar to the knotty problem Christian theologians have with the whole “pagan/heathen” problem or when Augustine was trying to come up with a logic that would get Aristotle into Heaven. If you want to make the argument that Islam is still living as far in the past as that example, I’m with ya. > [@](#): > > If your citation from Wikipedia on the Satanic verses are any indication, you don’t know Koran from hadith. It pretty important. A very rough parallel would be comparing hadith to scriptural sources like the Gnostic gospels: important to scholars, interesting, but not part of the accepted canon. The Hadith is used to interpret the Quran. It is important. Very. It is not some bit of information sitting out there on its own. You really need to find out a bit more about what you are talking about here if you think you example compares with the importance of the Hadith. But, I did mistakenly attribute the verses to the Quran that were in the Hadith. Here is the Quran confirming that the event occurred. From here [Link](http://quran.com/) 22:52 Sahih International And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet except that when he spoke [or recited], Satan threw into it [some misunderstanding]. But Allah abolishes that which Satan throws in; then Allah makes precise His verses. And Allah is Knowing and Wise. Muhsin Khan Never did We send a Messenger or a Prophet before you, but; when he did recite the revelation or narrated or spoke, Shaitan (Satan) threw (some falsehood) in it. But Allah abolishes that which Shaitan (Satan) throws in. Then Allah establishes His Revelations. And Allah is All-Knower, All-Wise: And 17:73 Sahih International And indeed, they were about to tempt you away from that which We revealed to you in order to [make] you invent about Us something else; and then they would have taken you as a friend. Muhsin Khan Verily, they were about to tempt you away from that which We have revealed (the Quran) unto you (O Muhammad SAW), to fabricate something other than it against Us, and then they would certainly have taken you a friend! 17:74 Sahih International And if We had not strengthened you, you would have almost inclined to them a little. Muhsin Khan And had We not made you stand firm, you would nearly have inclined to them a little. 17:75 Sahih International Then [if you had], We would have made you taste double [punishment in] life and double [after] death. Then you would not find for yourself against Us a helper. Muhsin Khan In that case, We would have made you taste a double portion (of punishment) in this life and a double portion (of punishment) after death. And then you would have found none to help you against Us. > [@](#): > > Wasn’t talking about them, I was asking about you. Its not that I claim a deep and encompassing knowledge of Islamic religion, its that I don’t really believe that you do, that your information base is more vast than mine own. And why would you think an ignorant Muslim (your words), the ones you are worried about offending, is any more aware? They use the words as they are given them usually by their imam or equivalent. I’m not arguing some esoteric interpretation, just what is readily apparent from looking at the text and how people can interpret it if they choose to. > [@](#): > > You are baffled that people don’t agree with you? Perhaps because you are wrong? I am baffled that people don’t think that because it is written down they won’t follow it. Did you never read a driver’s manual to learn how to drive? Or did you just ignore the book and do what you wanted? > [@](#): > > Before I sit at your feet and take notes, perhaps you could astound me with some support for your claims of extraordinary expertise? What expertise are you looking for? Osama and other fanatics claim to be following the Quran and the passages they use to support their actions do? [QUOTE=elucidator] Of course not. But it can appear so to an ignorant Muslim. They make distinctions we don’t make. [/QUOTE] What makes them ‘different’ that they don’t make the same distinctions we do? Muslim? Arab? No, ignorance, culture, and the constant immersion within their religion. It isn’t hard to convince them that killing unbelievers is a good thing when the imam can point to the passages in the Quran that says it is so. And while those passages may talk about ‘defending’ Islam, that definition of defending is as wide open as the prairie. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/987 "2010-09-22T19:42:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As for what Christ said, that’s besides the point; Christianity has little to do with Christ besides the name. Ah, so your argument is that a religion has little to do with the prophet of said religion even when their follower’s actions mirror his actions and claim that is the reason they are doing so? > [@](#): > > and it was supported in part by Christian apocalyptics who wanted to protect Israel so as fulfill Biblical prophecy and bring on the End Times and the Second Coming. So, religious follows do follow their religion? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/988 "2010-09-22T21:42:41Z")
**Uzi,** I find your citations somewhat confusing. Of the texts you cite, only one makes any mention of Shaitan (Satan). Your other quotes seem only to demonstrate a proficiency in the arts of cutting and pasting, of which we are already assured. The appearance of Satan in the Koran is to be expected, since the Islamic faith considered itself an extension of the Jewish and Christian faiths, a later revelation from the same God. So it is hardly surprising that a character from the Old Testament should show up in the Koran. But this: [QUOTE=Uzi] …The text is in the Quran and is counter to Muhammad’s assertion that there is only one god… [/QUOTE] is nonsense. Utterly and completely bass-ackwards. The Jewish traditions on which Islam is based never suggest that Satan is equal to God, by any stretch of the imagination. Any pious Jew would recoil in horror at the very suggestion. Indeed, most scholars are of the opinion that the name “Satan” means “adversary”, in the sense of one appointed to the task, a “devils advocate”, if you will. Some even go so far to suggest that the name is strictly a title, like “lawyer for the prosecution”, and need not be a name at all, but simply an assigned role. A role assigned by God, for mysterious purposes. > **[Satan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan)** > > Satan,\[a\] also known as the Devil,\[b\] is an entity in Abrahamic religions who entices humans into sin or falsehood. In Judaism, Satan is seen as an agent subservient to God, typically regarded as a metaphor for the yetzer hara, or 'evil inclination'. In Christianity and Islam, he is usually seen as a fallen angel or jinn who has rebelled against God, who nevertheless allows him temporary power over the fallen world and a host of demons. > A figure known as ha-satan ("the satan") first appears i... > [@](#): > > I…n the Book of Job (Iyov), ha-satan (“the accuser”) is the title of an angel submitted to God. In Judaism, ha-satan does not create evil but rather points out to God the evil inclinations and actions of humankind; in essence, ha-satan has no power unless humans do evil things. After God places a wager with Satan about Job’s piety, God gives ha-satan permission to test Job’s faith… Once again, your interpretations are uniquely creative. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/989 "2010-09-22T21:44:23Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > …So, religious follows do follow their religion? And the first rule of Tautology Club is the first rule of Tautology Club! > **[Honor Societies](https://xkcd.com/703/)** ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/990 "2010-09-22T22:30:56Z")
**elucidator** , maybe come back when you have a clue what you are talking about because it is obvious that you don’t. Mohammad is supposed to have made reference to a couple of other local deities, not Satan. The reference is known as the the Satanic Verses because one of the explanations as to why he said it is because Satan tricked him into doing so. It is referred to in the Hadiths directly while the Quran says that such things had occurred thus supporting the story in the Hadiths. Why is this in any way important? Well, there is only supposed to be one god, not our god and their god(s). If there were multiple gods then why worship the one Muhammad was promoting considering the pain in the ass he is? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/991 "2010-09-23T01:36:16Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > **elucidator** , maybe come back when you have a clue what you are talking about because it is obvious that you don’t… How vexing it must be for a man of your vast scholarly depth to put up with my silly mistakes. > [@](#): > > …Mohammad is supposed to have made reference to a couple of other local deities, not Satan… Reduced to a simple story, Mohamed was preaching to a tribe called the Quraysh. This was crucial because Islam did not have any clan alliances, which rendered them essentially “outlaws” in the prevailing Arabic culture. Outside of clan loyalty and blood feuds, the Arabs of that time had no laws, survival depended entirely on clan loyalties and strength of arms. Mohamed in his sermons erroneously permitted the Quraysh to believe that they could continue to worship their local gods and idols, that they were not required to abandon polytheism. But of course they were, Mohamed knew they were because Allah had told him so. He was remorseful and repentant, he had been cowardly and not given the same truth he had received. Allah forgave him, in a display of magnanimity and generosity, and told him to forget it, that he would eradicate the verses that resulted from Satan’s temptation, he would make it as though they had never happened. “You can do that?” asked the Prophet. “Hey, think about Who you’re talking to here, Mo.” (OK, I made that part up.) Point being, while this shows the Prophet in a human-all-too-human light, it is by no means “satanic” or even particularly evil. And of course devout Muslims are sensitive about it, devout Christians have a hard time explaining why Jesus had three sets of mutually contradictory Last Words. Of course, I welcome any corrections you may make. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/992 "2010-09-23T02:53:54Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Point being, while this shows the Prophet in a human-all-too-human light, it is by no means “satanic” or even particularly evil. And of course devout Muslims are sensitive about it, devout Christians have a hard time explaining why Jesus had three sets of mutually contradictory Last Words. Mohammad, the messenger of god, spoke words in god’s name that were from Satan. I agree it likely played out as you said, assuming any of it is true. Satan was just one of the explanations for the event and the words that Mohammad spoke. I’m not saying that Mohammad was, or was working for, Satan or any similar thing. Muslim scholars discount the veracity of the statements because it is in their interest to do so. How could it be possible for Mohammad to make such a mistake? Obviously, he couldn’t so lets just say it never happened rather than contemplate the alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/993 "2010-09-23T04:14:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > Ah, Father Der Trihs, you have come to teach the message of Jesus. > > > > The floor is yours. > > Translation: No, you haven’t seen many Christians emulate the founder of Christianity. Which demonstrates the (obvious) wrongness of your argument. Translation, you don’t have the slightest idea what your talking about but I did give you an opportunity to share. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/994 "2010-09-23T05:22:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > Translation: No, you haven’t seen many Christians emulate the founder of Christianity. Which demonstrates the (obvious) wrongness of your argument. > > Translation, you don’t have the slightest idea what your talking about but I did give you an opportunity to share. No, you are obviously wrong, have no good argument on for your side and so decided to mock me with “Father Der Trihs” instead. Pointing out that Christians don’t follow Jesus is like pointing out that the sky is blue or that water is wet, especially as it is a common complaint of Christians themselves. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/995 "2010-09-23T05:42:14Z")
Why is the Koran so violent? Because the world Islam was born into was violent, anarchic and savage. The early Muslims lived outside of the clan system that was the only source of protection and support until Muhamed arrived. The earliest years of Islam were years of violent struggle and assault from outsiders. By comparison, the earliest years of Christianity were comparatively benign. Jesus may (or may not, depending on whom you read) have been severely persecuted by the orthodox religious authority of his time, but by no means did the earliest Christans live under constant fear of massacre. Mostly, it appears, they were ignored. So, is it surprising that the original text of this religion should dwell on themes of violence? No, of course not. By comparison, the other pertinent facts are very surprising indeed, and that is that\* so much \*of the Koran centers on peace, generosity and forgiveness. For instance, the Koran lays out penalties and penances for murder, more or less codifying the previous clan warfare into a law. It seems to suggest that Allah accepts that people crave vengeance, but insists on rough justice, the penalty must not exceed the crime. But it also holds out the prospect of forgiveness, that if the injured party should forgive the transgressor, no penalty is exacted but the forgiving are dearer to the heart of Allah, the merciful. No, the violence and martial spirit of the Koran is not a surprise, the surprise is that it speaks so much of peace and mercy when born in a time and place where no good deed went unpunished. Because one illiterate man began spouting moral poetry, untold thousands of people made one giant step from darkness to civilization. Miracle enough for me, close enough for rock and roll. Everything evolves, every religion, every philosophy, every science, every art. To insist that a religion _inherently_ retains the taint of its violent birth is to deny that principle and to fling oneself into the teeth of the obvious facts. Lutherans don’t spout Martin Luther’s anti-Semitism because we are not the same people as we were. Catholics no longer insist that Jews murdered Jesus, same reason. Mormons no longer resist non-white members. The list goes on and on. If you are going to insist that the violent circumstances of Islam’s birth persist against evolution, then you are in need of some supernatural explanation to clarify why Islam remains essentially static while everything else changes, for fourteen hundred years. Or, more reasonably, you can accept that the circumstances of Islam’s origins are of no special importance, and that the violence that plagues the Islamic world is, to a large degree, not of their making, and certainly not an expression of the will of the Prophet or of Allah, the Merciful and Compassionate. That’s what they call Him, you know. Not Allah, the Superbad Ass-kicker. The Merciful and Compassionate. Not exactly terms of inherent belligerence, are they? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/996 "2010-09-23T07:14:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > Translation, you don’t have the slightest idea what your talking about but I did give you an opportunity to share. > > No, you are obviously wrong, have no good argument on for your side and so decided to mock me with “Father Der Trihs” instead. Pointing out that Christians don’t follow Jesus is like pointing out that the sky is blue or that water is wet, especially as it is a common complaint of Christians themselves. I mocked you because you don’t anything about Christianity. But I forgive you for your ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/997 "2010-09-23T07:22:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Why is the Koran so violent? Because the world Islam was born into was violent, anarchic and savage. The early Muslims lived outside of the clan system that was the only source of protection and support until Muhamed arrived. The earliest years of Islam were years of violent struggle and assault from outsiders. > > By comparison, the earliest years of Christianity were comparatively benign. Jesus may (or may not, depending on whom you read) have been severely persecuted by the orthodox religious authority of his time, but by no means did the earliest Christans live under constant fear of massacre. Mostly, it appears, they were ignored. Christians didn’t live in fear of massacre. [Really](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians)? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/998 "2010-09-23T07:39:49Z")
I’m not suggesting that early Christians did not suffer from contempt and persecution, but that the situation of the early Muslims was much more dire. Nor does my comparison extend any further than the very first few years. Which is what I was talking about, if I failed to make that clear. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/999 "2010-09-23T08:01:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’m not suggesting that early Christians did not suffer from contempt and persecution, but that the situation of the early Muslims was much more dire. Nor does my comparison extend any further than the very first few years. Which is what I was talking about, if I failed to make that clear. I believe all but one of the Apostles got to meet Jesus a little earlier then they planned. The first years, decades and centuries were pretty brutal. And Jesus wasn’t exactly an example of a pleasant death. He went out of his way not to harm people. Not to Lord that over you or anything but he was the MLK of his day. He could have taken a different road and started an army but he didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1000 "2010-09-23T12:07:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I believe all but one of the Apostles got to meet Jesus a little earlier then they planned. The first years, decades and centuries were pretty brutal. The first decades? Possibly. The first years? No. Aside from the mob action against Stephen, it would be twenty+ years before Nero riled up the Romans to take murderous action against the Christians, something that lasted a year or two only in the city of Rome, and then another 25-30 years before Domitian’s henchmen got them going in Asia Minor. Were individual Christians martyred, from time to time, for irritating local authorities? Yes. Were there massacres in the early years? No. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891.md?page=49) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891.md?page=51)