# Burning books in the US...'Burn Quran Day' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891 "2010-08-20T17:58:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 56
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1101 "2010-09-30T01:35:14Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > More broad brush hand waving generic excuses. > > Pointing out that you have attributed to me statements I have never made is hardly broad brush handwaving. That is your specialty. You’re the one who assigns other factors to events like the Bali bombing. > [@tomndebb](#): > > Which, of course, still resolutely ignores the fact that Irish Protestants and Irish Catholics inflicted a lot of violence on each other as Catholics and Protestants even without English interference. It is also different from what you claimed, earlier, that it was simply a political battle between Irish and English, even going so far as to make the absurd claim that “. . . it was a political conflict between the Irish and the English and did not involve Protestants and Catholics.” (You might want to look into the actual causes of the conflict that began in 1968 with the fairly systematized discrimination against Catholics that was embedded in Northen Ireland.) Since most Irish are Catholic and most English are Protestant then they are by default involved in the conflict. Now cite this was driven by religion. Show me a quote from the Pope or the Arch Bishop of Canterbury directing their flock to win one for the gipper (in this case, Jesus). > [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > The only broad brush stroke is the observation that the religion of Islam itself has a core problem of violence that is directly attributable to Mohammad. The closer it’s followers come to this core, the greater the likelihood of violence. That explains the actions of people who riot and kill over criticism of their religion and issue fatwas instructing others to do the same. > > Ahh, the No True Muslim defense. Any Muslim who is not engaged in barbarity is not a true Muslim. > > How convenient. No, any Muslim who follows Mohammad’s barbaric laws and actions is a barbarian. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1102 "2010-09-30T02:42:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > …Show me a quote from the Pope or the Arch Bishop of Canterbury… You got it backwards. Its the Pope who’s Catholic, and the Archbishop of Canterbury who shits in the woods. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1103 "2010-09-30T04:02:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > Pointing out that you have attributed to me statements I have never made is hardly broad brush handwaving. That is your specialty. > > You’re the one who assigns other factors to events like the Bali bombing. Yeah. It is shameless the way that I insist on posting facts. > [@Magiver](#): > > Since most Irish are Catholic and most English are Protestant then they are by default involved in the conflict. Now cite this was driven by religion. Show me a quote from the Pope or the Arch Bishop of Canterbury directing their flock to win one for the gipper (in this case, Jesus). Regardless whether most English are Protestants, the Protestants who live in Northern Ireland are Irish. Neither the pope nor the Archbishop of Canterbury ever supported the violence, but the Reverend Ian Paisely was very strident in whipping up anti-Catholic sermons and speeches. If you are really confused into thinking that the English are a party of Northern Irish violence (beyond whatever clumsy efforts the government of Great Britain contributed) or that there was no religious connection to the violence, you have no business posting on that topic, at all. The violence is not a part of religious wars, but then, I never claimed it was, (as you once again mischaracterize what I have posted), only noting against your claim that only Muslims engage in senseless violence that Christians do it, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1104 "2010-09-30T04:14:53Z")
I was not aware that [approximately 40%](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_and_politics_of_Northern_Ireland) constituted “most.”\* Wow. You really need to brush up on your math skills. Either that or get a better dictionary. This is the second time in this thread someone’s equated a minority with the term most. \*Let’s remember the conflict was in Northern Ireland. By the way, there’s a reason why Northern Ireland didn’t go with the rest of the country. Care to guess the reason? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1105 "2010-09-30T04:58:59Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > You’re the one who assigns other factors to events like the Bali bombing. > > Yeah. It is shameless the way that I insist on posting facts. I posted a cite to back up what I said. You posted opinion about a terrorist bombing based on hatred for a “western backed” politician who was long dead. > [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > Since most Irish are Catholic and most English are Protestant then they are by default involved in the conflict. Now cite this was driven by religion. Show me a quote from the Pope or the Arch Bishop of Canterbury directing their flock to win one for the gipper (in this case, Jesus). > > Regardless whether most English are Protestants, the Protestants who live in Northern Ireland are Irish. Neither the pope nor the Archbishop of Canterbury ever supported the violence, but the Reverend Ian Paisely was very strident in whipping up anti-Catholic sermons and speeches. If you are really confused into thinking that the English are a party of Northern Irish violence (beyond whatever clumsy efforts the government of Great Britain contributed) or that there was no religious connection to the violence, you have no business posting on that topic, at all. The violence is not a part of religious wars, but then, I never claimed it was. If you bring up Ireland in the discussion then you are implying religion was a driving force in the violence. But it’s nice that you admit it isn’t. When someone yells “God is Great” right before they kill someone that is a religiously driven event. when someone issues a fatwa to kill a cartoonist or author that is a religiously driven event. These things are done because at the core of Islam is a legal system that justifies it. The person who wrote those laws carried them out. If this bothers your sense of balance in the universe it doesn’t change the laws written or the acts committed. It explains why the most fanatical of Islam are more violent in relation to the perceived transgression just as the glorification of martyrdom explains the desire to carry out suicide bombings. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1106 "2010-09-30T05:22:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > Yeah. It is shameless the way that I insist on posting facts. > > I posted a cite to back up what I said. You posted opinion about a terrorist bombing based on hatred for a “western backed” politician who was long dead. Mischaracterization, again. I noted that every violent Muslim movement has been promoted by reactions to pesecution, corruption, or social disturbance. You claimed that the only “reason” for the Bali bombing was Islam, (which did not even address my point that did not involve motivation, _per se_). I noted that the _Jemaah Islamiyah_ group that executed the bombing had, indeed, been the object of persecution for a number of years. You tried to dismiss that actual source of the growth and development of the group (which had been my actual point to which you were responding) on the grounds that their primary (not sole) persecutor had died four years previously. This really does not attack my actual point that the group developed in an atmosphere of persecution, but you continue to pretend that I posted only “opinion” when I have demonstrated the accuracy of my claim. > [@Magiver](#): > > If you bring up Ireland in the discussion then you are implying religion was a driving force in the violence. But it’s nice that you admit it isn’t. Sorry. Your straw man does not work. Mentioning that religion was a factor in the violence when noting that religion plays a role in many violent events hardly makes a claim that it is a “driving force” in any specific situation, (although the actions of Rev. Paisely and the clear separation of sides based on religious identity would hardly indicate that religion is irrelevant). Stomping an argument I have not made does not make your argument stronger. > [@Magiver](#): > > It explains why the most fanatical of Islam are more violent in relation to the perceived transgression just as the glorification of martyrdom explains the desire to carry out suicide bombings. Not until you explain why Buddhism “explains” the actions of the group that invented suicide bombings–a group that was not Muslim. You continue to pick and choose what you want to look at while steadfastly ignoring facts that are inconvenient. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1107 "2010-09-30T05:48:11Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Mischaracterization, again. > > I noted that every violent Muslim movement has been promoted by reactions to pesecution, corruption, or social disturbance. > You claimed that the only “reason” for the Bali bombing was Islam, . No I claimed it was the driving force. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1108 "2010-09-30T05:57:23Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Not until you explain why Buddhism “explains” the actions of the group that invented suicide bombings–a group that was not Muslim. > > You continue to pick and choose what you want to look at while steadfastly ignoring facts that are inconvenient. I don’t have to explain Buddhist suicide bombings because they aren’t running around the entire planet trying to kill people. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1109 "2010-09-30T06:10:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > Mischaracterization, again. > > > > I noted that every violent Muslim movement has been promoted by reactions to pesecution, corruption, or social disturbance. > > You claimed that the only “reason” for the Bali bombing was Islam, . > > No I claimed it was the driving force. Well, what you actually said was > [@](#): > > None of that explains the Bali attack which has nothing to do with poverty oppression or government. which is simply not true. It had very much to do with oppression and the government. It very much was an expression of Islamist extremism–an extremism that was very much fostered by government oppression, a point you cannot acknowledge because it interferes with your need to view “Islam” as a problem, while ignoring the fact that Islam has a lot of different factions. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1110 "2010-09-30T06:14:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t have to explain Buddhist suicide bombings because they aren’t running around the entire planet trying to kill people. Actually, you mean that noting that suicide bombings actually originated with a group other than Muslims, (particularly one that does not put high values on martyrdom), puts a large hole in your argument that it is a “Muslim” phenomenon, so you need to hand-wave away that fact. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1111 "2010-09-30T06:20:37Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > No I claimed it was the driving force. > > Well, what you actually said was > > > [@](#): > > > > None of that explains the Bali attack which has nothing to do with poverty oppression or government. > > which is simply not true. It had very much to do with oppression and the government. It very much was an expression of Islamist extremism–an extremism that was very much fostered by government oppression, a point you cannot acknowledge because it interferes with your need to view “Islam” as a problem, while ignoring the fact that Islam has a lot of different factions. Post 480 \*\*Suharto was out of office for 4 years prior to the Bali bombing. There is no logic to the idea that they were opposing him. It wasn’t targeted at the government. It was targeted at symbols of Western cultural which corresponds to the messages handed down by Imams through mosques and schools. The driving force for the target was religion. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1112 "2010-09-30T06:24:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > Well, what you actually said was which is simply not true. It had very much to do with oppression and the government. It very much was an expression of Islamist extremism–an extremism that was very much fostered by government oppression, a point you cannot acknowledge because it interferes with your need to view “Islam” as a problem, while ignoring the fact that Islam has a lot of different factions. > > Post 480 \*\*Suharto was out of office for 4 years prior to the Bali bombing. There is no logic to the idea that they were opposing him. It wasn’t targeted at the government. It was targeted at symbols of Western cultural which corresponds to the messages handed down by Imams through mosques and schools. The driving force for the target was religion. > > \*\* Putting things in fancy colors does not make them less of a straw man. I never claimed that the Bali bombing was a specific protest against Suharto. I noted that \*Jemaah Islamiyah \*was founded and nurtured in an era of repression. That you continue to attack a statement I have never made or defended pretty much shows the poverty of your position. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1113 "2010-09-30T06:25:30Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > I don’t have to explain Buddhist suicide bombings because they aren’t running around the entire planet trying to kill people. > > Actually, you mean that noting that suicide bombings actually originated with a group other than Muslims, (particularly one that does not put high values on martyrdom), puts a large hole in your argument that it is a “Muslim” phenomenon, so you need to hand-wave away that fact. I don’t have to hand-wave what doesn’t exist on anything remotely resembling the scale of Islamic suicide bombings. We are not spending billions on security because of Buddhist suicide bombings. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1114 "2010-09-30T06:33:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t have to hand-wave what doesn’t exist on anything remotely resembling the scale of Islamic suicide bombings. We are not spending billions on security because of Buddhist suicide bombings. I do note that I have typed Buddhist when I meant Hindu for the last couple of posts. At any rate, you claimed that it was Islam that was the source for such actions. It was not. There are more Muslims than Hindus in locations where they have been persecuted or suffered social disruption based on their religion, so Muslims will demonstrate more violence. Your attempt to make suicide bombings an “Islamic” phenomenon is simply wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1115 "2010-09-30T06:34:27Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > Post 480 \*\*Suharto was out of office for 4 years prior to the Bali bombing. There is no logic to the idea that they were opposing him. It wasn’t targeted at the government. It was targeted at symbols of Western cultural which corresponds to the messages handed down by Imams through mosques and schools. The driving force for the target was religion. > > > > \*\* > > Putting things in fancy colors does not make them less of a straw man. I put them in color to make it easier for you to see that you were wrong about what I said. > [@tomndebb](#): > > I never claimed that the Bali bombing was a specific protest against Suharto. > I noted that \*Jemaah Islamiyah \*was founded and nurtured in an era of repression. That you continue to attack a statement I have never made or defended pretty much shows the poverty of your position. You attempted to wave it away with other factors when it was the hatred taught in Mosques that drove the attack. There is a serious worldwide problem with Islamic terrorism. At the core of this is the religion itself. It has to be dealt with on this level or it will never go away. Mohammad’s actions and teachings moved on 2 rails of track that were not compatible and until the violent side of his life are publicly addressed it will always be looked at as the blueprint for radical Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1116 "2010-09-30T06:36:51Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Your attempt to make suicide bombings an “Islamic” phenomenon is simply wrong. I point to the reality of the current attacks and you look for historic scraps to make a point. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1117 "2010-09-30T11:58:25Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is a serious worldwide problem with Islamic terrorism. > At the core of this is the religion itself. It has to be dealt with on this level or it will never go away. Mohammad’s actions and teachings moved on 2 rails of track that were not compatible and until the violent side of his life are publicly addressed it will always be looked at as the blueprint for radical Muslims. > [@Magiver](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > Your attempt to make suicide bombings an “Islamic” phenomenon is simply wrong. > > I point to the reality of the current attacks and you look for historic scraps to make a point. I point out that Islam has both violent and peaceful elements and that other religions have had factions every bit as violent and evil as the worst of Muslim factions–even concurrent with the extremist Muslim actions–and you insist that “Islam” is the problem and somehow unique. We’re down to the “Is too”/“Is not” stage of the discussion and I’ll let you have the last word unless you bring up something that is actually relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1118 "2010-09-30T12:20:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > Your attempt to make suicide bombings an “Islamic” phenomenon is simply wrong. > > I point to the reality of the current attacks and you look for historic scraps to make a point. [Last year](http://www.spur.asn.au/chronology_of_suicide_bomb_attacks_by_Tamil_Tigers_in_sri_Lanka.htm) is “historic”? > [@Magiver](#): > > There is a serious worldwide problem with Islamic terrorism. Nobody is arguing with this. > [@](#): > > At the core of this is the religion itself. It has to be dealt with on this level or it will never go away. Mohammad’s actions and teachings moved on 2 rails of track that were not compatible and until the violent side of his life are publicly addressed it will always be looked at as the blueprint for radical Muslims. Everybody is arguing with this. You are too wedded to your viewpoint to ever seriously consider that you might be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1119 "2010-10-01T04:34:49Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I noted that \*Jemaah Islamiyah \*was founded and nurtured in an era of repression. From what little I’ve read, this group was radical before and after Suharto. Being ‘repressed’ in this case wouldn’t have occurred without them first being rebels and attempting to create their own Islamic state. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1120 "2010-10-01T04:42:42Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > You are too wedded to your viewpoint to ever seriously consider that you might be wrong. Hmmm… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891.md?page=55) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891.md?page=57)