# Burning books in the US...'Burn Quran Day' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891 "2010-08-20T17:58:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 60
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1181 "2010-10-12T02:27:07Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > To the contrary, i’d argue you’ve missed a trick as regards proportionality. It’s not simply proportionality of violence, but a lack of proportionality of tone of violence. That is to say, your argument as I understand it is that the Bible is generally a much more peaceful and pleasant text than the Koran; likewise from them our understanding of respective prophets. But that would only explain actual proportionality of tone of violence; that is to say, when the degree of violence espoused is different, we should expect that difference to reflect in their followers, but a difference in followers doesn’t follow when it’s not a degree of violence that’s different, but acts in and of themselves that are different. No, you don’t understand. Jesus did not write the Bible. There are passages in the New Testament that are attributed to his teachings. His teachings and way of life differ greatly from that of Mohammad and it correlates with how fanatics view the world. > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > To try and put it quantitatively, let’s imagine Jesus says that murder is ok under a strict set of circumstances. Mohammed says that murder is ok under half as stringent circumstances. If we’re imaging stuff then we might as well discuss Elvis. > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Alright, let’s do this. Fred Phelps invokes God. Let’s look at the codification that justifies such actions. Please, point out the sections of the Bible and/or Jesus’ words which condone, let’s say, the murder of gays, and acted on those words. Fred Phelps hasn’t killed anybody so his actions are in line with his religion. For whatever links he’s found in the bible to homosexuality he is still stuck with a roll model who didn’t kill people. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1182 "2010-10-12T03:07:08Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > [Quote=tomndebb] > > So, we’re back to you deciding what other people believe about the book that holds their scriptures and then deciding, for them, how they are supposed to act on their beliefs–except that you want to pretend that your imposed interpretation has more reality for them than what they actually believe. ‘The cat is black’. A simple statement that means the color of the cat is most likely black. Now you, and everyone else, can believe it means anything you want it to mean, but it doesn’t make the cat any other color than black, now does it? And guys like Osama and the Islamic theocracies of the world are interpreting their religion as written and probably closer than those who gloss over the bad parts to get through their daily lives. Because the majority have (mis)interpreted (or more likely just ignored) the objectionable sayings in their book doesn’t make them none existent, or mean other than what they actually do mean. Their book and prophet says to kill guys like me because I don’t believe in their delusion. I’m not a person of the book. That they mostly ignore those parts of their ‘holy’ book, I’m eternally grateful for. I feel sorry for those innocents who have to die because of those that don’t ignore it. [/QUOTE] You are being silly and you are failing to support your claim. You claim that the Qur’an orders Muslims to “kill guys like” you, based on your interpretation of extracted sentences from four suras (out of 114 suras) that you take out of context and interpret a particular way and then insist that your interpretation is the same as the declarative sentence “The cat is black.” Yet, not even bin Laden has ever claimed that those suras justify or even encourage the killing of every unbeliever. That is something that you simply invent to support your odd interpretation. There are contexts for the statements that you quote and the context makes clear that your interpretation is nonsense and that your claim that they are simply black-and-white declarations is without foundation. As I noted earlier, your argument is exactly the same as saying that the bible claims that money is the root of all evil. You can find those words in the bible, but a reading of the actual passage indicates that anyone who holds a belief in that claim is either ignorantly or willfully misreading the passage. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1183 "2010-10-12T03:15:16Z")
The Scriptures clearly condemn French Impressionism, explicitly so in the passage about the love of Monet being the root of all evil. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1184 "2010-10-12T03:51:11Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You are being silly and you are failing to support your claim. > > You claim that the Qur’an orders Muslims to “kill guys like” you, based on your interpretation of extracted sentences from four suras (out of 114 suras) that you take out of context and interpret a particular way and then insist that your interpretation is the same as the declarative sentence “The cat is black.” Yet, not even bin Laden has ever claimed that those suras justify or even encourage the killing of every unbeliever. . We have a documented history of Muslims invoking the name of Allah while committing terrorist acts. The acts are linked to the religion. You claim that 4 out of 114 writings are misinterpreted. To start with, you attempted to minimalize the 4 sjras by showing they are a small percentage of the entire compilation. That is a nice debate tactic but it doesn’t mean the 4 siras have no meaning or were inaccurate. You are free to argue your opinion of what the suras mean but when all is said and done, it is the opinion of those who commit the acts in the name of Allah that matter. The 4 siras are not in conflict with Mohammad’s actions. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1185 "2010-10-12T03:56:08Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The Scriptures clearly condemn French Impressionism, explicitly so in the passage about the love of Monet being the root of all evil. yes, and Vincent Van Gogh would talk your ear off about religion. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1186 "2010-10-12T04:36:52Z")
Well, aren’t you a fun guy. My point, which I will reiterate, is that you put a lot of potency in the original avatar of a religious tradition, a nearly supernatural influence that you support with your insistence that it is so. While I won’t deny that it is reasonable to assume that followers of a religion may seek to emulate the founder, this is by no means certain. Jesus was very pacifistic, his followers may well be expected to be pacifistic, except when they aren’t, in which instances they are as bloodthirsty as any other group of people. Your firm principle of human behavior may as well be magic, in the sense that sometimes the magic works, and sometimes it doesn’t. Having little else, you insist that we respect this compelling principle as if it were established fact. Well, tell you what, you establish the fact and then, perhaps, we might. Point enough? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1187 "2010-10-12T04:38:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We have a documented history of Muslims invoking the name of Allah while committing terrorist acts. The acts are linked to the religion. Yeah, so? I don’t know anyone who denies that there are Muslim fanatics running around being terrorists. We also have a whole lot of history of even more Muslims actually behaving quite peacefully, refraining from killing people when they were able to do so and demonstrating no desire to kill people. Uzi’s weird claim (that you enjoy sharing) is that the book tells them to go out and kill all unbelievers (along with a number of other people). That, however, is only Uzi’s interpretation. He carefully ignores or distorts the ways in which the book is actually written and actually is read by its adherents, then Uzi makes the false claim that the book says one thing that is merely his own personal interpretation–an interpretation that is not actually shared by even the most fanatical zealots of that religion. Uzi’s claim is false and his logic is based on his own need to interpret other people’s beliefs for them. You simply want to hate some vague creation of your own that you assign the name “Islam,” invoking history when it suits you, then denying history when it fails to support you–which is most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1188 "2010-10-12T07:22:30Z")
To whoever it was who mentioned that Jesus didn’t write any of the Bible: Well, Muhammed didn’t write the Qur’an. That particular tome was put in written form after the man’s death. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1189 "2010-10-12T07:59:02Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > To whoever it was who mentioned that Jesus didn’t write any of the Bible: Well, Muhammed didn’t write the Qur’an. That particular tome was put in written form after the man’s death. Mohammad dictated it to his scribes while he was alive. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1190 "2010-10-12T09:23:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Mohammad dictated it to his scribes while he was alive. If he existed. There doesn’t seem to be any reliable sources than mention him until 200 years after his supposed death. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1191 "2010-10-12T09:58:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > My point, which I will reiterate, is that you put a lot of potency in the original avatar of a religious tradition, a nearly supernatural influence that you support with your insistence that it is so. While I won’t deny that it is reasonable to assume that followers of a religion may seek to emulate the founder, this is by no means certain. Jesus was very pacifistic, his followers may well be expected to be pacifistic, except when they aren’t, in which instances they are as bloodthirsty as any other group of people. > > Your firm principle of human behavior may as well be magic, in the sense that sometimes the magic works, and sometimes it doesn’t. Having little else, you insist that we respect this compelling principle as if it were established fact. Well, tell you what, you establish the fact and then, perhaps, we might. > > Point enough? What you’re missing is that what **Magiver** is presenting is the refined form of the ongoing argument of some on this board of Why Muslims Are All Evil. Having failed to demonstrate that Muslims have been historically significantly more violent than Christians (or indeed many other religions), or that Muslims are the leaders in modern terrorism or even that the peaceful Muslims are in favor of occasionally killing innocent people in the name of Allah, he has finally found a basis for comparison he can use without immediate failure: Mohammed was definitely a more violent guy than Jesus. Whether this argument actually means anything is another thing entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1192 "2010-10-12T12:43:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Monty](#): > > > > To whoever it was who mentioned that Jesus didn’t write any of the Bible: Well, Muhammed didn’t write the Qur’an. That particular tome was put in written form after the man’s death. > > Mohammad dictated it to his scribes while he was alive. Well, he dictated [something](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an) to scribes; however, the compilation and standardization happened long after Muhammed’s death. Evidently, there was a variety of books accepted by the early believers to have been a record of Muhammed’s revelation. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1193 "2010-10-12T12:55:54Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Uzi’s weird claim (that you enjoy sharing) is that the book tells them to go out and kill all unbelievers (along with a number of other people). That, however, is only Uzi’s interpretation. He carefully ignores or distorts the ways in which the book is actually written and actually is read by its adherents, then Uzi makes the false claim that the book says one thing that is merely his own personal interpretation–an interpretation that is not actually shared by even the most fanatical zealots of that religion If I made the claim that they must kill all unbelievers, or gave that impression, then I am sorry. They are only required to kill unbelievers in certain circumstances that they determine are appropriate. Usually in some form of ‘defense’ of themselves or their religion. The term defense Muhammad himself uses very loosely. It includes a proactive component that allowed him to wipe out the third Jewish tribe. Also, the argument that what the majority of a religions followers do and how they interpret their book doesn’t mean they are following their religion as the book actually says, or how the prophet expected it to be followed. You can claim that I have misinterpreted those suras, but I’ve yet to see any proof on your part, well, other than your hand waving, that I have done so. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1194 "2010-10-12T14:55:16Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > Mohammad dictated it to his scribes while he was alive. > > Well, he dictated [something](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an) to scribes; however, the compilation and standardization happened long after Muhammed’s death. Evidently, there was a variety of books accepted by the early believers to have been a record of Muhammed’s revelation. Your goal post is growing feet. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1195 "2010-10-12T15:04:16Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > What you’re missing is that what **Magiver** is presenting is the refined form of the ongoing argument of some on this board of Why Muslims Are All Evil. Having failed to demonstrate that Muslims have been historically significantly more violent than Christians (or indeed many other religions), or that Muslims are the leaders in modern terrorism or even that the peaceful Muslims are in favor of occasionally killing innocent people in the name of Allah, he has finally found a basis for comparison he can use without immediate failure: Mohammed was definitely a more violent guy than Jesus. > > Whether this argument actually means anything is another thing entirely. Nobody is arguing that Muslims are all Evil. The only thing evil is this kind of rhetoric in a debate forum. There is a serious problem with violence associated with the religion. It generates far more violent reactions to blasphemy or criticism than other religions in this time period. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1196 "2010-10-12T15:06:50Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > What you’re missing is that what **Magiver** is presenting is the refined form of the ongoing argument of some on this board of Why Muslims Are All Evil. Having failed to demonstrate that Muslims have been historically significantly more violent than Christians (or indeed many other religions), or that Muslims are the leaders in modern terrorism or even that the peaceful Muslims are in favor of occasionally killing innocent people in the name of Allah, he has finally found a basis for comparison he can use without immediate failure: Mohammed was definitely a more violent guy than Jesus. > > Whether this argument actually means anything is another thing entirely. Nobody is arguing that Muslims are all Evil. The only thing evil is this kind of rhetoric in a debate forum. There is a serious problem with violence associated with the religion. It generates far more violent reactions to blasphemy or criticism than other religions in this time period. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1197 "2010-10-12T15:14:53Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > Mohammad dictated it to his scribes while he was alive. > > If he existed. There doesn’t seem to be any reliable sources than mention him until 200 years after his supposed death. best of luck convincing a billion Muslims that. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1198 "2010-10-12T19:15:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Monty](#): > > > > Well, he dictated [something](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an) to scribes; however, the compilation and standardization happened long after Muhammed’s death. Evidently, there was a variety of books accepted by the early believers to have been a record of Muhammed’s revelation. > > Your goal post is growing feet. Keep posting bull here. I’d love for this thread to be moved to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1199 "2010-10-12T21:46:35Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > Your goal post is growing feet. > > Keep posting bull here. I’d love for this thread to be moved to the Pit. You posted a cite showing that Mohammad dictated the Koran. This is in contrast to your statement that]Muhammed didn’t write the Qur’an so pit yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1200 "2010-10-12T22:47:03Z")
Which was it, he wrote it or he didn’t write it? The moronic position is that he did both. That’s clearly impossible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891.md?page=59) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891.md?page=61)