# Burning books in the US...'Burn Quran Day' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891 "2010-08-20T17:58:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 62
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1221 "2010-10-14T04:45:02Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Clearly, there are Muslims who engage in stoning and there are Muslims who are quite happy to murder unbelievers. I have never denied those situations. Clearly there are. And they are following their beliefs based on the words and actions of Mohammad. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1222 "2010-10-14T05:00:20Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Let me get this straight. We should be worried about Muslims because they adhere strictly to commands of violence against non-Muslims. And the reason they do that is because their religious books command that. But at the same time, their religious books command them to not conduct violence against other Muslims and since they’re so strict about obeying the religious books they should be following this too. Well, that sure sets me straight. We should be worried that there is a book out there, and for tomndebb’s understanding, important supporting documents that condones certain god derived violent actions that some follow more closely than others. And if you want to rate that book compared to other such books, I’m quite willing to say one is worse than the other. I have supported my claims with facts that support my contention that some people follow the book very closely and by doing so they are following the actions of their prophet. Whether that be Saudi, Pakistan, or even Indonesia. The influence of fundamentalist Islam isn’t very good for the people who have to live under it and worse for those who aren’t followers. Fundamentalist Islam is attempting to follow the religion as closely as possible. Muhammad condoned stoning, so stoning is followed in certain areas. If he explicitly said stoning was wrong, it would be highly unlikely that it would be practiced by Muslims at all. That the majority of Muslims ignore the more odious sections of their holy book, is not surprising as the majority of Christians pretty much ignore their book, too. Most people are Christians or Muslims in name only and go through the motions because of family, culture and societal pressures. Luck for all the rest of us that it is so. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1223 "2010-10-14T05:09:57Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Let me get this straight. We should be worried about Muslims because they adhere strictly to commands of violence against non-Muslims. We are worried about radical Muslims because of all the attacks that have occurred and artists threatened. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1224 "2010-10-14T05:27:01Z")
Well, what about the radical Christians who use their religious writings to justify their murders, the radical Hindus who use their religious writings to justify their attacks on others, etc.? Look, the Qur’an isn’t the problem. If it were, then those who adhere so strictly to its precepts (according to you) to kill non-Muslims would also adhere strictly to its precepts against killing Muslims. Obviously, since there is Muslim-on-Muslim violence, including actual wars between Muslim countries, this isn’t the case. Take a hint from **tomndebb** and identify the actual cause of the violence. That way you’ll not show your ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1225 "2010-10-14T10:08:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > Clearly, there are Muslims who engage in stoning and there are Muslims who are quite happy to murder unbelievers. I have never denied those situations. > > Clearly there are. And they are following their beliefs based on the words and actions of Mohammad. So saith **Magiver** : all bad things Muslims do are because they’re just following Mohammed, all good things Muslims do are because they aren’t, and all bad things people of other religions do are irrelevant. Can I issue a fatwa against confirmation bias? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1226 "2010-10-14T17:49:15Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > Clearly there are. And they are following their beliefs based on the words and actions of Mohammad. > > So saith **Magiver** : all bad things Muslims do are because they’re just following Mohammed, all good things Muslims do are because they aren’t, and all bad things people of other religions do are irrelevant. > > Can I issue a fatwa against confirmation bias? You can issue a fatwa for not reading the entire thread. We’ve discussed the difference between someone acting on their beliefs versus someone of a particular religion doing something bad. When someone issues a fatwa that a cartoonist should die, that is based on a religious belief. When someone yells “God is Great” just before killing people, that is driven by religious belief. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1227 "2010-10-14T18:21:14Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Well, what about the radical Christians who use their religious writings to justify their murders, the radical Hindus who use their religious writings to justify their attacks on others, etc.? Here again, we’re dealing with a drastically different ratio of violence between Islam and than other religions. There are no equivalent mechanisms like fatwas or sharia law justifying the violence. > [@Monty](#): > > Look, the Qur’an isn’t the problem. If it were, then those who adhere so strictly to its precepts (according to you) to kill non-Muslims would also adhere strictly to its precepts against killing Muslims. Obviously, since there is Muslim-on-Muslim violence, including actual wars between Muslim countries, this isn’t the case. When a progenitor prophet of a religion justifies violence there is nothing illogical about different factions within the religion engaging in the same behavior. It is not a blanket reason behind wars nor is this discussion related to those wars. What Uzi and I have discussed is the violence inherent to radical Islamists who are clearly driven by their beliefs to kill people over ideas and perceived blasphemy. > [@Monty](#): > > Take a hint from **tomndebb** and identify the actual cause of the violence. That way you’ll not show your ignorance. When there is such a large disparity of violence between the various religions it is logical to look at the religion itself to see if there is a link to the violence and not attempt to assign the same political/social conditions that people in other religions experience as an excuse. There are clear links to fatwas demanding the death of someone and their murder. There are clear links to people who yell “God is Great” just before killing a random group of people. There are clear links to people murdering other people over the suggesting that a book is burned. Your inability to posit a rational response to what I’ve said and then suggest ignorance on my part is not a legitimate debate tactic. As a scientific advisor to this board you should be the last person to engage in such behavior as well as your previous passive aggressive threat of a pit thread. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1228 "2010-10-14T18:48:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > …When there is such a large disparity of violence between the various religions it is logical to look at the religion itself to see if there is a link to the violence and not attempt to assign the same political/social conditions that people in other religions experience as an excuse… Except that you have not proved any such thing as a “large disparity”, you’ve taken it as a given, an “well, everybody knows” fact. But is it a fact? Can you offer any such proof? As far as offering an “excuse”, no, what we are offering is a clear motivation to violence, one common to other religious and ethnic groups who do respond with violence. Some of those are Muslim, others are not. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1229 "2010-10-15T03:15:46Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > If it were, then those who adhere so strictly to its precepts (according to you) to kill non-Muslims would also adhere strictly to its precepts against killing Muslims. That is assuming they are the same group of people, isn’t it? Does a Shia think that a Sunni is actually following Islam? Or the Sunni in regards to Shia? Protestants and Catholics have had very similar thoughts towards each other. Nor has anyone suggested that religion is the only motivational factor, rather I’d suggest it can be a tipping point towards actions that wouldn’t normally occur otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1230 "2010-10-15T04:01:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Except that you have not proved any such thing as a “large disparity”, you’ve taken it as a given, an “well, everybody knows” fact. But is it a fact? Can you offer any such proof? Yes, I’ve taken an everybody knows it stance. Where would you like me to start? Downed aircraft? attempted aircraft bombings? Number of people murdered in random bombings? Artists threatened or murdered? Shootings? Fatwas? Riots and murders over book burnings? riots and murders over statements made in public. Gays sentenced to death? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1231 "2010-10-15T04:16:12Z")
Well, if thats what you’ve got, you’ve already started, and repeated, with numbing redundancy. You have proven beyond contradiction that Muslims are human beings, and a number of them are very much not nice. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1232 "2010-10-22T15:52:49Z")
[Dove World pastor Terry Jones gets a car for not burning Quran.](http://www.gainesville.com/article/20101022/articles/101029802&tc=yahoo) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1233 "2010-10-22T16:21:30Z")
I can see the next Oprah special already. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1234 "2010-10-22T23:03:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, I’ve taken an everybody knows it stance. Where would you like me to start? Downed aircraft? attempted aircraft bombings? Number of people murdered in random bombings? Artists threatened or murdered? Shootings? Fatwas? Riots and murders over book burnings? riots and murders over statements made in public. Gays sentenced to death? Actually, i’d be interested in stats, too. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1235 "2010-10-22T23:05:18Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > We are talking about the 6 people (Magiver’s statement) who were killed because of the Quran burning that never happened. I wonder how many would have been killed if it had actually occurred? I don’t know. I was under the impression we were talking about any people who could be or were harmed as a result of that situation. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1236 "2010-10-22T23:17:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No, you don’t understand. Jesus did not write the Bible. There are passages in the New Testament that are attributed to his teachings. His teachings and way of life differ greatly from that of Mohammad and it correlates with how fanatics view the world. Jesus is quoted in the Bible. His life and his actions are set out for potential followers to emulate him. The problem you have is that it is not enough to draw a proportional claim, you have to draw an exact one. You’ve claimed that there are people killing and doing all sorts of unpleasant things because they are fanatic followers of Mohammed, and fanatic followers follow the words and actions of their prophets. Using that same logic, we must lay the sins of Christian fanatics at Jesus’ feet; if that does not work, then it does not work across the board. > [@](#): > > If we’re imaging stuff then we might as well discuss Elvis. You may as well, given that your argument requires that Jesus commands deaths, while also claiming that he didn’t. Christian fanatics have killed people. Fanatics follow their prophets. Ergo, Christian fanatics kill people because they’re following the words and actions of Jesus. If that conclusion is false, then it is because the argument is incorrect. > [@](#): > > Fred Phelps hasn’t killed anybody so his actions are in line with his religion. Really? The total sum of Christian thought is “No killing?” That’s it? You know, they could probably lose a lot of the Bible, then. Save a fortune on printing costs! > [@](#): > > For whatever links he’s found in the bible to homosexuality he is still stuck with a roll model who didn’t kill people. You really think that Phelps and his group argue strongly for the deaths of so many people but of course wouldn’t dare to go through with it? They only don’t because they’d be locked up. Plenty of Christian fanatics over the years have killed people, either because they didn’t think they’d be caught or they were nuts enough to not think about it. But that still doesn’t matter, because for Phelps to be line with his actions Christianity must support all of the unpleasant things he does. And, since fanatics follow prophets, so too he must be Jesus-like in his character and actions. Is he? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1237 "2010-10-22T23:20:57Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Actually, i’d be interested in stats, too. Then knock yourself out doing the research. I’ve already listed a few of the categories you can break them down my. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1238 "2010-10-22T23:24:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Then knock yourself out doing the research. I’ve already listed a few of the categories you can break them down my. I’d have a go at it, but I presumed from the finality of your posts that you already had such stats to hand. When you say you’re talking about it from an “everybody knows it” stance, are you meaning that you’re taking that as your evidence for it? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1239 "2010-10-22T23:45:36Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’d have a go at it, but I presumed from the finality of your posts that you already had such stats to hand. When you say you’re talking about it from an “everybody knows it” stance, are you meaning that you’re taking that as your evidence for it? When you post stuff like this: \*\*Really? The total sum of Christian thought is “No killing?” That’s it? You know, they could probably lose a lot of the Bible, then. Save a fortune on printing costs! \*\* I don’t see where you really want to discuss or debate anything. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891/1240 "2010-10-22T23:48:37Z")
So you mean to say that you will answer the question, but only if asked by a poster with sufficient moral fiber and character references? Perhaps if you gave us a short list of posters who qualify, we might ask them to pose the question? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891.md?page=61) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-books-in-the-us-burn-quran-day/550891.md?page=63)