# Burning in effigy: Cruel & Unusual Punishment? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 16, 2000, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-in-effigy-cruel-unusual-punishment/17978 "2000-04-16T19:44:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2000, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-in-effigy-cruel-unusual-punishment/17978/1 "2000-04-16T19:44:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*originally posted by sqweels: > I’ve posted this suggstion twice already and didn’t get a nibble, but I’ll try again. > The appropriate punishment for burning an American flag is to be burned in effigy. A symbolic punishment for a symbolic crime. \*\* **Sqweels** has mentioned this several times, and each time the crowd just rolls right on over him in its haste to get to the fight. I personally thought it was a nifty idea the first time he said it, so I’d like to give him this opportunity to discuss it. While I was thinking about it (how would you implement it?, etc.), I got to wondering other things, like to what other crimes would burning in effigy be applicable–how about using it on a politician caught in an egregious lie, such as “I never had sex with that woman”? Then I realized that, if we did have a law that called for burning in effigy as punishment, somebody somewhere would probably say it was cruel and unusual punishment. Would it be? What else constitutes cruel and unusual punishment, in the U.S.A.? Here are the Founding Fathers on the subject: > [@](#): > > \*\*Amendment VIII > > Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. \*\* So, this is a really broad OP, suitable for a Sunday afternoon, shooting the breeze. Burning in effigy, and /or cruel and unusual punishments. **Sqweels,** here’s your soapbox. Go! 😃 * * * “Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen ---
**Author:** ![Gilligan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Gilligan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gilligan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2000, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-in-effigy-cruel-unusual-punishment/17978/2 "2000-04-16T21:42:00Z")
Burning in effigy as a punishment might be considered cruel and unusual in the same way that a mark on your forehead branding you as a convicted criminal would be. It isn’t the burning (or the marking) that is cruel, it is the public humiliation. The original suggestion was for flag-burners; I can’t imagine they would care about the effigy. They already know they aren’t in public favor, so the punishment is pointless. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2000, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-in-effigy-cruel-unusual-punishment/17978/3 "2000-04-17T00:10:00Z")
I’m glad to see I’m finally getting some response to my idea. But my point is not that there should be a _law_ calling for burning flag-burners in effigy. Rather, anyone upset over a flag-burning incident can simply go ahead and do it, in lieu of any new legislation. Unless I’m mistaken, it’s already legal, a protected form of free speech, just like you-know-what. As I stated in the “Old Glory” thread: > [@](#): > > Perhaps each American Legion chapter can be the headquarters for the local anti-flag burner effigy squad. When an incident of flag burning is reported, they can swing into action, obtaining a likeness of the offender(s), constructing the dummy, selecting a site for the counter-protest, and contacting the local media. Once it’s over, that’s that until next time. No fuss, no muss. I don’t think it could considered cruel and unusual in any case. Being burned in effigy may be humiliating, but completely harmless in any tangible sense (again, just like flag-burning). (As for Clinton, he’s already suffered the greatest humiliation in the history of the world, so that pretty much satisfies that.) ---
**Author:** ![Anti\_Pro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Anti\_Pro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anti_Pro)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2000, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-in-effigy-cruel-unusual-punishment/17978/4 "2000-04-17T03:53:00Z")
This is interesting, bringing in two topic ideas. Anyone who has children goes through the child stealing at some point, usually it is around age five. I knew it was coming, I have two boys. The first one stole a silly piece of doll’s clothing from our church. I took DJ to the teacher, embarrassing him to pieces (he told me that years later, not then) had him explain (while he was crying) that he had stolen the dolls jacket and he apologized. The teacher accepted the apology, but stood up, \*\* glaring \*\* at me. She waited until later to tongue lash me for embarrassing my son and probably ‘crippling him for life’. I replied, I’d rather live with a cripple than with a thief. She didn’t like me very well for awhile! Embarrassment can sometimes work wonders, if the person is still impressionable. The hard hearted, or hard headed, not so easily accomplished, unfortunately! I don’t think burning an effigy of the person who burned the flag would work, but hey, I say to the American Legions all across the United States, you never know, till you give it a try! ## My response to the burner would be, what’s your encore? Let’s see something serious, burn your diplomas, childhood pictures, your clothes, show us your anger at this country! Judy * * * “I never saw so many words compressed into so small an idea.” Abraham Lincoln ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2000, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-in-effigy-cruel-unusual-punishment/17978/5 "2000-04-17T06:59:00Z")
Yes, burning in Effigy, IS cruel & unusual. I believe Effigy is a small township near Miskatonic, Mass. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2000, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-in-effigy-cruel-unusual-punishment/17978/6 "2000-04-17T09:54:00Z")
Take that down. I own the rights to my image, and I will sue anyone who publicly uses my image to further their purposes for their own gain, without my permission. Besides, I didn’t burn that flag, my lawyer did. * * * rocks ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2000, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-in-effigy-cruel-unusual-punishment/17978/7 "2000-04-17T12:58:00Z")
OK, so **Sqweels** wasn’t talking about a law calling for this as punishment, just a suggestion for a way to vent feelings? If you’re annoyed that somebody burned a flag, you should go make an effigy of that person and burn it? I can see some civil rights issues here, possibly, or possibly it’s just that I haven’t had any coffee yet. I can see the thing escalating, for one thing. What if the flagburner, call him Matches, takes issue with the effigy-burner, call him Dollmaker? Should Matches then burn Dollmaker in effigy? Or should Matches just go over to Dollmaker’s house with a pump shotgun? And who would be the designated Dollmaker, when Matches burns a flag? Just the person who was personally outraged? Usually it’s an entire group of people. What prevents the “ceremonial” effigy-burning from turning into a real lynching? If it’s not a law, I guess it kind of makes the “cruel and unusual” thing irrelevant. But still, if you were Matches, and Dollmaker burned you in effigy, could you sue him for mental anguish? This makes a nice change from Elian-elian-elian… ## 🙂 “Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2000, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-in-effigy-cruel-unusual-punishment/17978/8 "2000-04-18T00:15:00Z")
But the idea of effigy-burning causing mental anguish makes no more sense than that flag-burning causes similar harm. In court the two issues would no doubt be juxtaposed, with the effigy-squad arguing that the flag-burner can’t have it both ways. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2000, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burning-in-effigy-cruel-unusual-punishment/17978/9 "2000-04-18T18:42:00Z")
So maybe we ought to have laws against BOTH things, flag-burning AND effigy-burning! 😃 Don’t want nobody to suffer no mental anguish, now… “happy thoughts, happy thoughts…” * * * “Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen