# Burying terrorists bodies in pig's flesh... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 4, 2002, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burying-terrorists-bodies-in-pigs-flesh/135163 "2002-11-04T01:46:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2002, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burying-terrorists-bodies-in-pigs-flesh/135163/1 "2002-11-04T01:46:52Z")
Came across [this](http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=32749) little article on the web. If the link doesn’t work it says that the Russians are going to bury those Islamic terrorists’ bodies wrapped in pig skin. The idea being that fundamentalist Muslims view pigs as such filthy animals that not only is it adhorent to eat pork, but to be buried like this would prevent your soul from ever entering heaven. Although this has a practical purpose, making current muslims think twice about becoming a terrorist, it obviously has the more emotional, symbolic purposes of punishment and revenge. And I say, bravo to both reasons!! It isn’t as barbaric (to us anyway) as dragging the corpses thru the streets, something that terrorist countries frequently do to their enemies. But I think its an effective way to use their fundamentalist beliefs against them. And I thinks its funny. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2002, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burying-terrorists-bodies-in-pigs-flesh/135163/2 "2002-11-04T02:42:16Z")
The end result will be that by insulting the religion of a huge number of people who aren’t terrorists, that little stunt might just get some folks into thinking about becoming terrorists since their government, like you, doesn’t give a fig about their religious sensibilities. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2002, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burying-terrorists-bodies-in-pigs-flesh/135163/3 "2002-11-04T07:46:34Z")
This is already being discussed over in the Pit (sorry but the board’s moving too slow at the moment for me to provide a link). In addition to the objection raised by Monty, why on earth would anybody think this would prevent terrorism? I really doubt that Muslims think Allah is too thick to tell the difference between somebody who deliberately wrapped himself in pigskin, and somebody who was wrapped in pigskin as a punishment for doing (what they see as) Allah’s work. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2002, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burying-terrorists-bodies-in-pigs-flesh/135163/4 "2002-11-04T08:34:50Z")
“But he hit me first!” ---
**Author:** ![Gomez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d78d45/32.png) [@Gomez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gomez)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2002, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burying-terrorists-bodies-in-pigs-flesh/135163/5 "2002-11-04T11:32:34Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Monty_ > The end result will be that by insulting the religion of a huge number of people who aren’t terrorists, that little stunt might just get some folks into thinking about becoming terrorists since their government, like you, doesn’t give a fig about their religious sensibilities. Heh, I’m counting down the days until some Fundamentalist Muslim Cleric declares pigs tio be plants. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2002, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burying-terrorists-bodies-in-pigs-flesh/135163/6 "2002-11-04T14:31:58Z")
Just wanna point out, before we get all cranked out of shape, that the source for the original news item may be slightly suspect. [http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/news/1102/01mercury.html](http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/news/1102/01mercury.html) > [@](#): > > In another development, the popular Russian tabloid Moskovskii Komsomolets published an article saying that rather than returning the bodies of the 50 Chechen rebels killed at the theater to relatives, the government will instruct state security services to wrap the corpses in pigskins and bury them. [http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/krono.exe?3235](http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/krono.exe?3235) > [@](#): > > Investigative journalist killed in bomb blast > Date: 20.10.1994 > > A bomb blast at the offices of the radical democratic newspaper Moskovsky komsomolets killed the investigative journalist Dmitriy Kholodov and wounded one of his colleagues, Russian media reported on 17 October. [http://www.shadowfire.de/pages/funstuff/misc/picwith.html](http://www.shadowfire.de/pages/funstuff/misc/picwith.html) > [@](#): > > I didn’t believe it until I got an original copy. When Russian paper “Moskovsky Komsomolets” stole my review to Jon Lord’s “Pictured Within” from the official DEEP PURPLE homepage, they made the “famous German rock critic Andreas Thul” out of me. Surprised? Well, I was - but here’s the scan of the original text: [http://www.friends-partners.org/friends/news/omri/1994/10/941024.html(opt,mozilla,unix,english,,new)](http://www.friends-partners.org/friends/news/omri/1994/10/941024.html(opt,mozilla,unix,english,,new)) > [@](#): > > MOSKOVSKY KOMSOMOLETS CHARGED WITH INSULTING DEFENSE MINISTER . . > > According to Russian media, on 21 October the Russian > Prosecutor-General’s Office brought charges of libel and > defamation (oskorblenie) against the daily Moskovsky komsomolets following an appeal by Defense Minister Pavel Grachev. > > Staff of the newspaper have accused Grachev and his deputy, Matvei Burlakov, of involvement in the assassination of Dmitrii > Kholodov, who had exposed corruption in the military. The > immediate reason for Grachev’s request was the publication in the > daily on 20 October of documents pertaining to a criminal case > brought against the general by the military prosecutor a few > years ago. Grachev had been accused of appropriating for his own > use two large Mercedes bought with money allocated by the German government for housing army officers leaving Germany; the case was closed when Grachev said Yeltsin had given his consent to the arrangement. – Julia Wishnevsky, RFE/RL Inc. So it’s a “tabloid”, or a "radical"newspaper, and it’s the kind of newspaper that steals reviews and gets charged with libel. Hardly the BBC. And, “Russians bury pigskin chechens” is not coming up on GoogleNews at all, only the one hit for the Atlanta J-C, and they only featured it as a short squib at the end of another article. I’m guessing that the mainstream media are reluctant to go with anything from the “popular Russian tabloid.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2002, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burying-terrorists-bodies-in-pigs-flesh/135163/7 "2002-11-04T15:27:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hail Ants \* > If the link doesn’t work it says that the Russians are going to bury those Islamic terrorists’ bodies wrapped in pig skin. The idea being that fundamentalist Muslims view pigs as such filthy animals that not only is it adhorent to eat pork, but to be buried like this would prevent your soul from ever entering heaven. The Tchetchens - who happen to Muslim but whose main disagreement with the Russians is purely ethno-political- may or may not hold to the folk superstition. There is certainly nothing to say that an infidel defiling the body of a Muslim will prevent the Muslim from ascending to heaven. So this is nothing more than childish, ill-informed counter-productive stupidity. Very Russian for all that. > [@](#): > > Although this has a practical purpose, making current muslims think twice about becoming a terrorist, it obviously has the more emotional, symbolic purposes of punishment and revenge. No, what it will do is feed Tchetchen rage against the Russians, deepen Muslim sympathies for the Tchetchens and tend to further push a political conflict into the irrational bloody territory of religious war. > [@](#): > > And I say, bravo to both reasons!! And I say it’s drooling ignorant idicoy, false no doubt as well. > [@](#): > > It isn’t as barbaric (to us anyway) as dragging the corpses thru the streets, something that terrorist countries frequently do to their enemies. Wonderful: “terrorist countries” - I can not think of a more foolish formulation than simply plopping any country with some Muslims where we or others have had problems and with blind and stupid ignorance thinking this is some sort of coherent thinking. Somali of course is the reference. Whatever the issues involved, and they were many, the Somali incident was hardly terrorism. It was civil war, it was straight out war, but it was not terror. Somali irregulars fighting American troops meets just about any definition of war that makes any sense. It’s a matter of confused idiocy to lump these disperate events, which -despite some ignorant damned neo-Cons beating an post facto al-Qaeda drum on evidence every bit as shitty as the faked evidence in re the Iraqi-Czech-al-Qaeda mt- had no connection at all with al-Qaeda or even religion. It did have a lot to do with clumsy execution of a mission that improperly saw things in black hat-white hat terms, where no one in American command understood how to deal with clan-based culture and where the execution ended up alienating even Somalis who began the operation on the American side. > [@](#): > > But I think its an effective way to use their fundamentalist beliefs against them. Super. Think that. It in fact is an effective way to use one’s own ignorance to unnecesssarily create more enemies, to further inflame a subject people and to further push Tchetchens into the arms of uncompromising violence. Not that they need much help given the utterly barbaric manner in which Russian troops have conducted themselves in the country, and the long bloody history of Soviet oppression of the Tchetchens (in the rubric of Soviet-Great Russian nationalism). Anyone but dimly familiar with the genocidal tactics of the Russians, and indeed their obstinant refusal to negotiate on anything but capitulative terms would hesitate to advance the pious proclamations that the Tchetchens should just sit down and negotiate with the Russians. What I find most ironic is if the Tchetchens had taken up arms 12-15 years ago, the neo-Cons here would be cheering them on against their Soviet oppressors. Instead we see idiotic attempts to cast this in Cold War terms to the clear detriment of a coherent intelligent policy. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2002, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burying-terrorists-bodies-in-pigs-flesh/135163/8 "2002-11-04T15:34:40Z")
And, hey, I remembered hearing something like this somewhere else, and I found it–over on Snopes. [http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.htm](http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.htm) > [@](#): > > Claim: General John J. Pershing effectively discouraged Muslim terrorists in the Philippines by killing them and burying their bodies with pigs. > Status: Undetermined. > > \< snip \> > > …Nevertheless, the idea of subduing militant Muslims by threatening to bury them with pigs has held currency for many years. Just a few weeks before the September 11 terrorist attacks on America, Deputy Israeli police minister Gideon Esra suggested in the Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharonot that Palestinian suicide bombers be buried in pig skin or blood. In the 1939 film The Real Glory, Gary Cooper portrays Dr. Bill Canavan, an American Army doctor in 1906 Manila who “tries to protect the native population from ruthless invaders” (i.e., “Muslim fanatics”). At one point in the film, the Dr. Canavan character drapes a captured Muslim in a pigskin and proclaims that henceforth that all slain Muslim rebels will be buried in pig skins, thereby discouraging their “savagery” by threatening to prevent their entry into paradise. And, of course, the above-cited anecdote about General Pershing’s handling of terrorists in the Philippines has been circulating widely ever since September and has been making the rounds even at the top levels of government in the USA… So, I guess it looks like Moskovsky Komsomolets gets Internet spam, too. > [@](#): > > childish, ill-informed counter-productive stupidity. Yep, that’s “spam”, all right. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2002, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burying-terrorists-bodies-in-pigs-flesh/135163/9 "2002-11-04T15:44:12Z")
In re the usage in the Philapines, etc. Such a tactic might very well have had some effect in a time period when Muslim fighters were really superficially Islamicized and held largely shamanistic beliefs. However, such acts in the context of the modern Salafiste style movements is nothing but idiocy. Salafisme advocates getting back to the root texts and peeling away “un-Islamic” accretions and popular beliefs owing more to “taqleed” - tradition - than Hadithe or more rigorous Sunnah traditions. Now of course, every one likes carve out their own exceptions, but the idea that non-Muslims and above all in Salafi terms, kufaar (infidels) could prevent a good Jihadi from entering heaven by simply disrespecting his dead body is has no theological support at all. It is no doubt true that some folks have held such beliefs, but it will NOT inform the Salafi hard core resposne, except to feed into further radicalizing them and giving them a hook to “prove” that the West hates Islam and Muslims and that moderate Muslims are fooling themselves in finding a modus vivendi with ad-Dhimma. In short, such acts are not punishment, they are propaganda gifts to the Salafine. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2002, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/burying-terrorists-bodies-in-pigs-flesh/135163/10 "2002-11-04T18:09:57Z")
The reason that you shouldn’t wrap the terrorists in pigskin isn’t because you might piss off other Muslims\*. You shouldn’t wrap em in pigskin because it lends legitimacy to their warped beliefs. It basically admits that their mission was morally correct and that this is the only step you could take to prevent them from ascending to heaven to get their 72 virgins. \*[sub]note: if you’re the type of person who’s more upset about an asshole being buried improperly than said asshole killing innocent people, you were going to go to the dark side at some point and this is as poor an excuse as any.[/sub]