# Bus Beheading Back in Court **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 27, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711 "2009-02-27T20:06:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711/1 "2009-02-27T20:06:42Z")
The trial of Vincent Li, charged with 2nd degree murder after last summer’s bus beheading, will be in court next week. Sole issue is whether he will be found not criminally responsible by reason of mental disorder. According to this story, indications are that both doctors who have been treating him believe he meets the tests for the mental disorder verdict: [Accused in bus beheading not responsible: Doctors; Psychiatrists conclude Vincent Li suffered from mental illness](http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Accused+beheading+responsible+Doctors/1289401/story.html). Trial will be based on an agreed statement of facts, so none of the passengers will be called as witnesses. Trial is expected to last three days. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711/2 "2009-02-28T00:21:01Z")
What’s the test in Manitoba for mental responsibility? Is it still based on the M’Naghten rules? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711/3 "2009-03-02T03:44:14Z")
Yes, as set out in s. 16(1) of the [Criminal Code](http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/ShowDoc/cs/C-46/bo-ga:s_3_1::bo-ga:l_II//en?page=2&isPrinting=false#codese:16): > [@](#): > > \*\*Defence of mental disorder > > 16.\*\* (1) No person is criminally responsible for an act committed or an omission made while suffering from a mental disorder that rendered the person incapable of appreciating the nature and quality of the act or omission or of knowing that it was wrong. It’s the same across Canada, since criminal law is an area of exclusive federal jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711/4 "2009-03-02T05:36:08Z")
Wasn’t there cannibalism involved too? He apparently understood killing well enough to eat his prey. Shouldn’t that count for something? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711/5 "2009-03-02T15:18:56Z")
It’s impossible to diagnose mental illness based solely on the news reports, and I don’t think that factor means much - it depends on what his mental state was at the time of the actions. For instance, if he was hallucinating so badly that he thought he was killing Bambi and eating some raw deer meat, it would be a strong factor suggesting he was not able to appreciate the nature and quality of his actions. (Note: I’m using that hypothetical purely to illustrate the issue; I have no idea what the medicos have found out about his mental state at the time, nor what he thought he was doing.) ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711/6 "2009-03-02T15:49:06Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Wasn’t there cannibalism involved too? He apparently understood killing well enough to eat his prey. Shouldn’t that count for something? I don’t see how this could make a difference. The dude was obviously off the beam, cannibalism or not. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711/7 "2009-03-02T16:53:05Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I don’t see how this could make a difference. The dude was obviously off the beam, cannibalism or not. Well, if he was eating the corpse, he probably understood that he had killed. But as Northern Piper mentioned, maybe he thought he killed a deer, as bizarre as that seems. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711/8 "2009-03-02T21:13:40Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Yes, as set out in s. 16(1) of the [Criminal Code](http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/ShowDoc/cs/C-46/bo-ga:s_3_1::bo-ga:l_II//en?page=2&isPrinting=false#codese:16): > > > [@](#): > > > > **Defence of mental disorder** > > 16. (1) No person is criminally responsible for an act committed or an omission made while suffering from a mental disorder that rendered the person incapable of appreciating the nature and quality of the act or omission or of knowing that it was wrong. > > It’s the same across Canada, since criminal law is an area of exclusive federal jurisdiction. We have similar provisions in the _Mental Health (Criminal Procedure) Act (NSW)_ 1980: > [@](#): > > **38 Special verdict** > > (1) If, in an indictment or information, an act or omission is charged against a person as an offence and it is given in evidence on the trial of the person for the offence that the person was mentally ill, so as not to be responsible, according to law, for his or her action at the time when the act was done or omission made, then, if it appears to the jury before which the person is tried that the person did the act or made the omission charged, but was mentally ill at the time when the person did or made the same, the jury must return a special verdict that the accused person is not guilty by reason of mental illness. I think similar provisions have been codified to a greater or lesser extent in the other states too. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711/9 "2009-03-02T21:21:59Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I don’t see how this could make a difference. The dude was obviously off the beam, cannibalism or not. It’s interesting; this is usually my instinctive reaction to these kinds of stories. A guy riding on a bus just jumps up and beheads somebody? He’s crazy. Obviously the legal definitions are different, but there sometimes seem to be these things where the act itself is the evidence for a mental problem. ---
**Author:** ![Dan\_Norder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4af34b/32.png) [@Dan\_Norder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dan_Norder)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711/10 "2009-03-02T22:55:09Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > The dude was obviously off the beam, cannibalism or not. Nobody is disputing whether he’s off the beam (especially since I’ve never heard of that phrase). The question is whether he was insane. Someone can be crazy in a way that doesn’t impair their knowledge of right from wrong, and if they kill someone knowing and appreciating that it’s wrong, then they aren’t legally insane. They get the book thrown at them the same as anyone else. Jeffrey Dahmer, for example, ate people, made little private shrines out of body parts, tried to lobotomize people into sex slaves and so forth, but he was legally sane because he fundamentally know what he was doing and that it was wrong but did it anyway. Thus he went to prison instead of a mental health facility. This bus beheading guy seems like he probably was insane. He killed the guy in full view of all the other passengers on the bus. Any sane person who appreciated the situation would likely realize that he was going to be caught and punished for doing that, but he did so anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711/11 "2009-03-04T17:15:56Z")
First day’s worth of testimony indicates a major psychotic episode linked to schizophrenia and a voice from God telling the accused that his victim was evil and would come back to life unless dismembered: [CourtCourt weighs voices, fear and rage with question of responsibility – Vince Li believed he was acting on God’s orders when he beheaded Tim McLean, psychiatrist testifies](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20090304.LI04/TPStory/National). I"m not going to post any of the grisly details - they’re in the linked article for anyone who’s interested. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711/12 "2009-03-04T19:39:15Z")
**Northern Piper** , I’d be interested in your take on what’s becoming known as “Tim’s Law,” which Mr. McLean’s family has been trying to promote recently. I was reminded of it from these statements in your Globe and Mail link: > [@the Globe and Mail link](#): > > “My concern is protecting everybody else from people like this,” said Carol deDelley, Mr. McLean’s mother, who has been pushing for a new law that would prevent anyone designated NCR from being released. > > “For Mr. Li’s safety, he needs to be in a locked treatment facility. For me, I don’t care if it’s in a penitentiary or a treatment facility.” For those not in the know, “Tim’s Law” would see any NCR (not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder) murderer put away for life–in a hospital or a penitentiary, as appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711/13 "2009-03-04T21:39:36Z")
My off the cuff reaction is that it goes contrary to the basic requirement of mens rea, which is a principle of fundamental justice, entrenched by s. 7 of the Charter: [R. v. Vaillancourt](http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/1987/1987rcs2-636/1987rcs2-636.html). The automatic nature of the detention for life also looks problematic, in light of [R. v. Swain](http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/1991/1991rcs1-933/1991rcs1-933.html). ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711/14 "2009-03-04T23:08:31Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Wasn’t there cannibalism involved too? He apparently understood killing well enough to eat his prey. Arguably, Canadian justice is not doing enough to take a bite out of crime. From the linked story: _“Carol deDelley, the victim’s mother, told the Free Press last fall it’s outrageous Li will have the chance to taste freedom again.”_ 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![longPath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@longPath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/longPath)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711/15 "2009-03-05T00:17:25Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Arguably, Canadian justice is not doing enough to take a bite out of crime. From the linked story: > > _“Carol deDelley, the victim’s mother, told the Free Press last fall it’s outrageous Li will have the chance to taste freedom again.”_ > 🙂 Well done, sir… would you like a side of fries with that? ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711/16 "2009-03-05T01:43:57Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > My off the cuff reaction is that it goes contrary to the basic requirement of mens rea, which is a principle of fundamental justice, entrenched by s. 7 of the Charter: [R. v. Vaillancourt](http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/1987/1987rcs2-636/1987rcs2-636.html). The automatic nature of the detention for life also looks problematic, in light of [R. v. Swain](http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/1991/1991rcs1-933/1991rcs1-933.html). Thanks for the cites–my immediate reaction to “Tim’s Law” as it has been presented in the news as part of this story was that it somehow couldn’t be passed. But I couldn’t put my fingers on exactly why. _Vaillancourt_ and _Swain_, both of which I read at law school when we studied mens rea and NCR cases, reminded me of why. Again, thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711/17 "2009-03-05T16:18:15Z")
Looks like it was a joint submission: both Crown and the defence have submitted that the judge should find Li not criminally responsible by reason of mental disorder. Judge will give his decision today; seems a foregone conclusion, in light of the evidence presented and the joint submissions. [Verdict awaited in Manitoba bus beheading trial](http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/03/05/li-verdict.html). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711/18 "2009-03-05T19:33:21Z")
[Judge finds Li not criminally responsible in bus beheading](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090305.wli0305/BNStory/National/home). ---
**Author:** ![original\_fake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a4c791/32.png) [@original\_fake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/original_fake)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711/19 "2009-03-05T20:17:35Z")
**Canada judge: Man not responsible for beheading** [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090305/ap\_on\_re\_ca/canada\_bus\_beheading](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090305/ap_on_re_ca/canada_bus_beheading) > [@](#): > > Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can’t be held responsible because he had schizophrenia and believed God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was evil. If you ever want to commit a crime and get away with it, move to Canada and tell everyone you were working as an instrument for God. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Weird\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@The\_Weird\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Weird_One)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711/20 "2009-03-06T00:53:37Z")
I just noticed this thread today. Thanks for the updates! I carefully followed the original thread and am glad to know how the case turned out. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-beheading-back-in-court/487711.md?page=2)