# Bus stop bullies, impressionable kids, and the appropriate use of violence. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 17, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903 "2014-11-17T22:07:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903/21 "2014-11-18T03:11:43Z")
If he’s been a cop, he should know “verbal judo”, as well as how to use his voice and body language to gain compliance, without going hands on. Just watch the guy’s hands though; weapons can be employed awfully quickly if you’re not watching out for them. I’m not eager to trigger an assault charge and or civil suit if I don’t have to. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903/22 "2014-11-18T03:43:51Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Interesting how many people go straight to fists. I’d like to hope that I would try to defuse the situation first. I’d offer him my own spares - they aren’t worth that much, and certainly worth more than the lesson I’d be teaching my son. > > I got extras, the other guy doesn’t, he’s certainly acting up because he’s cold. I can understand that. Maybe nobody ever did anything nice for him, that’s why he “asks” for stuff like that. Maybe I’m wrong, and I’m just out $20 to an ingrate. That’s acceptable. > > If he looks like he’s about to hurt anyone, though, he gets taken down. +1 Always try the unexpected first. If that doesn’t work, you can fall back on something familiar that you know is bad idea, will get you into trouble with the police, might cause the loss of your job and business, and will be a example to your son that may later get him into the same kind of trouble. Odds are, a man like that is used to getting beat up from time to time. It hasn’t changed his behaviour in the past, and it’s not going to change his behaviour today. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903/23 "2014-11-18T04:38:20Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > Other: > > D then moving to (E) if necessary and on to (F) as a last resort. > > Paul should be dialing 911 as soon as a fist is flung. > > E must let A say the bad stuff & swing first. > > ? How drunk is A > > ? Does E have any gift for gab? Has he even tried to do this type of thing before? > > Does E touch A while getting his attention? I disagree that Step (E) should ever be taken; never threaten violence. If you’re going to do something violent, warning the potential recipient is beyond stupid. He should do Step (D) and if that doesn’t work, he should make clear that the articles are going to stay with their rightful owner and Andre is going to leave the bus stop. Then he should refuse to back down, even in the face of violence. If violence erupts, he should kick Andre’s ass. That’s how I do it, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903/24 "2014-11-18T06:36:19Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > ::: snip ::::: > > An overreaction would be killing or permanently disabling him. Spoil sport… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903/25 "2014-11-18T06:37:33Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > And I say that is a terrible life lesson. Sometimes violence _is_ the answer. ↑ ↑ ↑ Perzactly. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903/26 "2014-11-18T06:49:30Z")
(b) Mollify Andre by offering the extra hat and gloves he has in his pocket. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903/27 "2014-11-18T07:05:56Z")
How are we defining “Try to defuse with the threat of violence”? Are we talking “Back off or I’ll beat the shit out of you.” or standing between Andre and DeShawn and saying, “I won’t let you hurt this man.”? Also, how physically imposing does Edumnd look? Sure, he’s in good shape, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s burly. Does he look big and muscular, or more like a regular person wearing a winter coat with a cunning hat and gloves? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903/28 "2014-11-18T08:06:12Z")
The child is the complicating factor here. Per the OP, there are no family members to provide for the child if something happens to Edmund. If Edmund is killed, jailed, or hospitalized, the kid is in foster care. Getting involved in preventing an attempted strong arm robbery is just not the thing to do for the long term best interest of the child in this situation. Edmund needs to act to protect the child first, even if that means walking away and dialing 911 once safely out of earshot. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_York](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f6c823/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_York](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_York)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903/29 "2014-11-18T08:29:52Z")
Drunken louts like Andre get off on other peoples weakness. In their mind trying to pacify them is a sign of weakness, negotiating with them is a sign of weakness. Your weakness gives them strength. They need to be confronted strongly and very early in the situation. I have seen situations like this hosed down very swiftly by a swift and firm response. Many years ago I was in a pub in London with a mate when a guy came in behaving very scary and threatening. Basicily he was approaching people in a boxing stance, and sort of shadow boxing in their face. His fists were only inches from their faces, but he never actully hit them. The pub was an up market style with a genteel clientel and people were obviously terrified. When he reached us he started his boxing stance and started throwing punches near or faces, so we pushed him to the floor and then frog marched him outside and shoved him up the road. We never had to hit him or hurt him in any way but he never fought back or tried out his boxing skills. Meanwhile back in the pub the publican was so grateful we had free drinks for the rest of the evening. I’m sure that this would have escalated into something more serious had it been allowed to continue. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903/30 "2014-11-18T08:59:46Z")
**Ed** = Kick his ass **Me** = Call 911 and then give the guy the gloves as we’re waiting for the cops to arrive,. > [@](#): > > We’re back to hypotheticals with longish storytelling OPs. If you don’t like these, why’d you open the thread? I was told there would be ice cream. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903/31 "2014-11-18T14:46:18Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I disagree that Step (E) should ever be taken; never threaten violence. If you’re going to do something violent, warning the potential recipient is beyond stupid. Correct. Never threaten. Talk, retreat, or attack. I assume that Edmund has enough experience in H2H that, once violence is initiated, he will not stop until it is clear that there is no longer a threat. I don’t mean kill him (unless Andre has a weapon) but take him down and apply a joint lock or choke. Chokes are better because you can choke someone out without hurting him permanently or leaving marks, which is convenient if the police get involved. I think it was Heinlein who said - > [@](#): > > Violence is rarely the answer. When it is, it is the only answer. I don’t think Edmund should do anything different whether his son is watching or not. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903/32 "2014-11-18T14:56:32Z")
Start with (d), while calling 911 if possible. Stick around to make sure Deshawn does not get assaulted. If Deshawn wants to give away his hat and gloves, then that’s his choice – but Edmund can tell him “you don’t have to do that”; if he does it anyway, then Edmund can give Deshawn his extra hat and gloves. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903/33 "2014-11-18T15:25:11Z")
Why is everybody, except possibly Shodan, assuming that Andre is unarmed? There are all sorts of ways that this could play out, and a lot of them are bad. Andre has a gun and shoots Edmund. That’s a loss. Andre has a gun and shoots Paul or DeWayne or Scooter or Boogaloo or Cletus or one of the others present, even if by accident. Those are also losses. Edmund strikes Andre, who turns out to have a weak blood vessel in his head or other hidden infirmity, and kills him “over a hat.” By the time the legal system is done with him, even if he does not time, it will be a loss. Andre turns out no to be the blustering creampuff Edmund thinks, and Edmund gets the holy living shit kicked out of him in front of his kid. Another loss. The police arrive and treat it as mutual combat since Edmund jumped into a situation of which he wasn’t a part. Loss. Edmund beats down Andre who then sues him. Many, many dollars in legal fees later, even though the suit was dropped, Edmund has still lost. If I were in this situation with my daughter in tow, I would put her behind me and begin moving her to a place of safety while keeping my eye on Andre. Andre has a lot of problems and clearly wants to make them other people’s problems too. DeWayne is on his own. I have my child to protect and everybody else there is going to take hind tit to that. If Andre decides to target me/us, very bad things will happen to him. Obviously, I think Edmund should be moving his son to a place of safety. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903/34 "2014-11-18T15:55:00Z")
I’d ask the boy if it was okay to give the other guy his gloves and hat and make sure he’s okay. Compassion is better than violence when it comes to teaching your children values. And no matter how skilled you are in street fighting you have no idea if ninnyhammers are armed. Hats and gloves aren’t as necessary in Memphis as protection from other ninnyhammers. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903/35 "2014-11-18T16:41:48Z")
I’m with scumpup. The real version of this scenario must include the fact that Andre is very possibly armed, in which Ed’s bad as ninja skills are probably moot. His first responsibility is to the safety of his son, and unfortunately with his son present he’s not in a good position to interfere with the situation. It’s just going to be a bad day for DeShawn. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903/36 "2014-11-18T17:31:05Z")
\*\*Omnnibus response: \*\* Put me down with the people who think that Edmund should offer Andre his own extra gloves & hat, in the process employing verbal judo to draw Andre’s attention away from DeShawn and toward him and employing violence only in self-defense. I concur with whoever it was that said that a completely unexpected act of compassion may so surprise Andre as to utterly change the tenor of the situation. There’s value in doing that. That’s the best lesson to teach Paul: be kind as much as possible and use violence only when forced to. And now to specific posters: > [@Oakminster](#): > > The child is the complicating factor here. Per the OP, there are no family members to provide for the child if something happens to Edmund. If Edmund is killed, jailed, or hospitalized, the kid is in foster care. Getting involved in preventing an attempted strong arm robbery is just not the thing to do for the long term best interest of the child in this situation. Edmund needs to act to protect the child first, even if that means walking away and dialing 911 once safely out of earshot. I’m unsurprised that you picked up on this aspect, **Oak** , surprised that no one else did. Like Schrodinger’s cat, I find myself simultaneously agreeing and disagreeing. That is, yes, Paul’s presence is the most important thing, and Edmund should avoid doing anything that is likely to end Paul in foster care. He should have given that more thought before approaching Andre. But it doesn’t matter. He’s already initiated a confrontation, whether pacific or antagonistic; we’re asked to enter the story after the point when has done so. Andre’s clearly a bully; Edmund would be unwise to turn his back on him at this point. The only way out is through. > [@Scumpup](#): > > Why is everybody, except possibly Shodan, assuming that Andre is unarmed? Because they read the OP for comprehension. It says that Edmund believes Andre to be unarmed. Andre isn’t holdng a weapon,and he’s dressed in tight clothes not allowing room for concealment, and no weapon is visible. He can’t have a weapon tucked at the small of his back, because Edmund would have noticed it while approaching him; Andre’s back was turned to him until Edmund said “Hey, Andre.” Now Edmund may be _wrong_–Andre could have a gun or knife concealed in an ankle holster or sheath–but that’s irrelevant, because his decision-making will be based on what he believes to be true. > [@Dorjan](#): > > I’m with scumpup. The real version of this scenario must include the fact that Andre is very possibly armed Already addressed. > [@](#): > > in which Ed’s bad as ninja skills are probably moot. His first responsibility is to the safety of his son, and unfortunately with his son present he’s not in a good position to interfere with the situation. It’s just going to be a bad day for DeShawn. Edmund came within arm’s reach of the thug for a reason: to reduce the danger a gun would present. Andre does not have a weapon in his hands, and he has been drinking. I would strongly argue that given Edmund’s professional training and innate skills, he’s not going to let the boozy lout crouch to get to an ankle holster. > [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > I’d ask the boy if it was okay to give the other guy his gloves and hat and make sure he’s okay. Compassion is better than violence when it comes to teaching your children values. Nitpick: assuming by the boy you mean Paul, Edmund doesn’t have to ask him that. He’s surely wearing the birthday gift hat & gloves, which he put on because Paul asked him to, so the extra set are in his pocket. I wouldn’t give away my kid’s present ot me without asking him first, but that’s not Ed would be doing. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Start with (d), while calling 911 if possible. Stick around to make sure Deshawn does not get assaulted. If Deshawn wants to give away his hat and gloves, then that’s his choice – but Edmund can tell him “you don’t have to do that”; if he does it anyway, then Edmund can give Deshawn his extra hat and gloves. Calling 911 is pointless. There’s just no way the cops are going to arrive in time to do anything useful, unless there’s already one with sight anyway. And standing by idly while the robbery happens, and only then giving DeShawn his gloves, teaches Paul only to let the bad guys win. > [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > How are we defining “Try to defuse with the threat of violence”? Are we talking “Back off or I’ll beat the shit out of you.” or standing between Andre and DeShawn and saying, “I won’t let you hurt this man.”? I won’t speak for “we,” but _ **I** _ mean something like the latter. > [@](#): > > Also, how physically imposing does Edumnd look? Sure, he’s in good shape, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s burly. Does he look big and muscular, or more like a regular person wearing a winter coat with a cunning hat and gloves? Edmund obviously looks like mid-80s [Avery Brooks](http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7xh65962E1qd97av.png). He’s Hawk, except he’s not a sociopath. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903/37 "2014-11-18T17:40:34Z")
You should read more closely, Skald, even when you are feeling not-so-fresh and are easily irritated. > [@](#): > > I’m unsurprised that you picked up on this aspect, Oak, surprised that no one else did. Clearly, you didn’t read past the opening line of my response to your hypothetical. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903/38 "2014-11-18T17:45:41Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > You should read more closely, Skald, even when you are feeling not-so-fresh and are easily irritated. > > Clearly, you didn’t read past the opening line of my response to your hypothetical. I’m not easily irritated. I just read and responded to Oak’s post before reading yours and was too lazy to edit. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903/39 "2014-11-20T00:56:48Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > \*\*Omnnibus response: \*\* > > Put me down with the people who think that Edmund should offer Andre his own extra gloves & hat, in the process employing verbal judo to draw Andre’s attention away from DeShawn and toward him and employing violence only in self-defense. I concur with whoever it was that said that a completely unexpected act of compassion may so surprise Andre as to utterly change the tenor of the situation. There’s value in doing that. > > . So what do you give him the next time Andre is there extorting another victim? The word you are looking for is not compassion but appeasement. Just because YOU offer something doesn’t let Andre’s victim off the hook. It is not about the gloves and hat and it never was. He’s not demanding anything out of need to keep his head and hands warm. It’s about Andre demeaning his victim. THAT is the point. THAT is the bully’s goal. If you give in to him, he will keep coming back for more. ---
**Author:** ![Henryunderborn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58f4c7/32.png) [@Henryunderborn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henryunderborn)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903/40 "2014-11-20T01:12:41Z")
Sweep kick his legs and tell him to “pick himself up he just kicked his own ass”. start walking back to his kid, and then, reverse fling him into traffic as he tries to attack you from behind. all in a days worth, for being in a good society. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bus-stop-bullies-impressionable-kids-and-the-appropriate-use-of-violence/704903.md?page=3)