# Bush admin being sued for segregating public protesters. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 25, 2003, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818 "2003-09-25T19:40:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818/41 "2003-09-26T03:51:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > \*\*SNIP "isn’t all of America meant to be a “free-speech zone”? > > SNIP\*\* Indeed. But even college campuses are setting up particular “zones” for free speech at certain times or days. They finally got rid of the one at one of my two campuses, as it was getting them too much (negative) attention. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818/42 "2003-09-26T03:53:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magiver \* > \*\*First, I doubt the President stands around looking over a list but if we’re playing the “what if” game I’m willing to give the wheel a spin. What if a President wanted photo ops with ONLY black people in it (that’s never happened:) ). He can go to an NAACP gathering, on private property. But if he wants to move white people off of a public sidewalk purely because they are white, I think we’d run into trouble with that also. Next question? > [@](#): > > Your analogy based on race does not apply to security concerns and any president who suggested such a tactic to the Secret Service would look pretty stupid. How is a sign holder on the sidewalk a security breach? > [@](#): > > The problem with the topic is that it applies to all Presidents but in this case it is being directed at Bush as if it is something new. \*\* If you can find some examples of similar behavior in previous presidents, I’ll be first in line to denounce it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818/43 "2003-09-26T04:01:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > \*\*So I guess what we can learn from this is, if one is a terrorist looking to get close to President Bush to commit some nastiness, all one has to do is **carry a pro-Bush sign**. > > Yeah, “security” sure is what’s at stake here. :rolleyes: \*\* Yeah, “security” issues ARE what’s at stake. :rolleyes: WTO freakshows are simply not going to happen around a President. ANY President. I don’t recall Clinton standing in front of an angry crowd. Unless you are suggesting the Media deliberately whitewashed his appearances I would say the SS was doing it’s job. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818/44 "2003-09-26T04:02:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Taken out of context. My post was in response to 'Luci stating that presidential photo ops with pro-Bush supporters must be prevented So I misunderstood? You are **not** saying it’s alright to push/hide protesters away from the cameras? Why are you disagreeing with everyone else then? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818/45 "2003-09-26T04:14:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > **How is a sign holder on the sidewalk a security breach?[** > > Exactly how is a SS Agent supposed to screen antagonists on-sight? if I’m at a town meeting, and I start yelling and waving signs, I get a polite bums rush out the door. > > \*\* > If you can find some examples of similar behavior in previous presidents, I’ll be first in line to denounce it. \*\* I would say the same thing. However, I’ve never seen a president who wasn’t similarly quaranteed from protestors. Does the SS take it too far? Hard to say, I don’t have the intel to say yes or no. Have there been attempts on Presidents lives recently? Yes: Ford, Reagan, and Bush Senior. I personally find it obnoxious to shut down a city for the royal spector of a Presidency. But such is life. ---
**Author:** ![CTB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@CTB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CTB)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818/46 "2003-09-26T13:47:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > **Did you read my post? I said I thought it was a bad idea for Bush to do this (although I don’t consider myself a “resident Pubbie”). I believe you are the one insinuating a political agenda where none exists. Chill out, man.** How on earth does the movement of only people with a certain political viewpoint escape from having a “political agenda”? I am simply asking the impossible: for a Bush supporter (pubbie or not) to admit that the man did something shitty, and out of bounds constitutionally.\*\* > [@](#): > > Here’s the way I see it. The Secret Service are obliged to keep a secure area around the pres, even in a public space. Sorry if you don’t like that. You do not have a “right” to walk up and touch the president. He may, if he chooses, say he wants to shake your hand and invite you over to do so. Is there a way to distinguish between that and what actually happened in the real event? I’m just saying I see a continuum of interaction, and it’s unclear where to draw the line.\*\* I have no desire whatsoever to touch the bastard. The stench would likely never wash off (I have willingly shaken hands with his Unca Ronnie, his Father, and Clinton, just so you don’t go thinking I’m being all partisan again). \*\* > [@](#): > > Supposing the pres wants a photo op. He invites 5 pro-Bush demonstrators over to be photo’d with him. Are you saying he is constitutionally obligated to also invite 5 anti-Bush folks over for the photo? \*\* We are not talking about photops, and we are not talking about private property. Why are you trying to inject complexity where it does not exist. The world is complex enough without you adding to it. The secret service is empowered to close off a certain perimeter around the president and his travel route. Security is the only reason that may be used to keep people out of these prtected zones. As has been stated tirelessly in theis thread, there is no greater danger from someone carrying a sign that disagrees with the man’s policies and so these people can get as close as anyone else. If someone were to directly threaten the health and wellbeing of the president on a sign, well then fine, that is a restriction of free speech that has good precedence and no one would argue against taking that person away. On private property and some government properties, the president is fully within his rights to meet with only NAMBLA members if it floats his boat. Is that chilled enough?😛 ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818/47 "2003-09-26T15:56:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > **I agree that the president should not use uconstitutional means to control protestors. The article is a little vague on the details of whether or not this was done wholesale or on a smaller, selective basis.** Then [educate yourself](http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpeech.cfm?ID=13694&c=86). Entire crowds of people, in public places, are being filtered according to the speech they are presenting. This is NOT the same as the pres choosing who gets to be up close and personal for a photo op. He’s filtering the general audience and segregating protestors out of the general population. > [@](#): > > \*\*Like I said in my first post, this is very nuanced, and not so obviously cut and dry as it might seem. \*\* No, actually it is not very nuanced. It is very cut and dried. Read the source I just cited. The crowds are being filtered. They are being filtered along a criteria which our constitution forbids the government to use. This is no different than filtering the crowd along racial lines and deciding that all the white people can stand along the parade route ten feet from the limo, but behind barricades, but the black people have to stand half a mile from any point on the route behind a chain-link fence. The situation you are describing, the invitation of certain people into a restricted zone and the selection of those people being the perrogative of the president, is a red herring. The public spaces are being filtered. Look, just read the freaking material and stop with the hypothetical mumbo jumbo. When you can speak to the facts of what has been happening, then speak. Until then you’re not adding to the debate, you’re just hijacking it. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818/48 "2003-09-26T16:01:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Kalamazoo, Michigan > At President Bush’s appearance at Western Michigan University on March 27, 2001, a protester was carrying a sign sarcastically commenting on the prior Presidential election (“Welcome Governor Bush”). A Western Michigan policeman ordered him to go to a “protest zone” behind an athletic building located 150-200 yards from the parade route. After the protestor was ordered to move, several hundred people who were not carrying signs congregated in the area where the lone protester had stood and were allowed to remain there. The protest zone was located so that people sent there could not be seen by the President or his motorcade. When the protester refused to enter the protest zone, but insisted on standing where other people had been allowed to gather, he was arrested. Local police testified at his trial that the decisions had been made by the Secret Service. > … > Stockton, California > On August 23, 2002, at an appearance in a local park to support a Republican gubernatorial candidate, protesters were ordered behind a row of large, Greyhound-sized buses, which placed them out of sight and earshot of their intended audience. They were advised that if they went to the other side of the buses, a location visible to those attending the event, they would be arrested. People who carried signs supporting the President’s policies and spectators not visibly expressing any views were allowed to gather in front of the buses, where event attendees could see them. Local police told the protesters that the decision to force them behind the buses had been made by the Secret Service. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818/49 "2003-09-26T16:14:50Z")
So, I guess the lesson to be learned here is that if one wants to protest the President, just act like a staunch supporter when entering. That should pretty much give you a front row seat. Then you just need to be quick in your protest before they toss you, or charge you with being unamerican or something. Yep, foolproof security there. Those SS guys are smart. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818/50 "2003-09-26T16:31:37Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t recall Clinton standing in front of an angry crowd. I was at a Clinton-Gore rally in downtown Memphis in 1996. There were dozens of well-groomed protesters with anti-Clinton signs scattered throughout the crowd. I personally stood next to a group and made snide comments directed at them hoping to get one of them to slug me and be ejected. They did not break (although one of them was REALLY mad at me) and they were allowed to remain in the crowd for the duration of the rally. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818/51 "2003-09-26T16:39:37Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t recall Clinton standing in front of an angry crowd. I was at a Clinton-Gore rally in downtown Memphis in 1996. There were dozens of well-groomed protesters with anti-Clinton signs scattered throughout the crowd. I personally stood next to a group and made snide comments directed at them hoping to get one of them to slug me and be ejected. They did not break (although one of them was REALLY mad at me) and they were allowed to remain in the crowd for the duration of the rally. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818/52 "2003-09-26T17:00:02Z")
> [@](#): > > _Diogenes the Cynic:_ > (I thought the whole country was a free speech zone) No, the whole country is not a free speech zone. For example, you do not have a right to free speech on my property. Similarly, the government has the right to place reasonable time, place, and manner restrictions on your speech. These TPM restrictions are frequently upheld by the Courts. For example, if I want to hold an “Irish People Are Smelly” rally on St. Patrick’s day, and I want to have it somewhere on the St. Patty’s day parade route, the government will probably tell me that I can’t because that route has already been booked by the St. Patty’s day paraders. They booked the area first, so they get first rights to speak in that area. Their right to speak may include excluding other messages. Same thing’s happening here. The RNC (or whoever) has already booked the area for its “pro-Bush” rally (or whatever). Because the government has issued the pro-Bush people a permit to speak on that land, the government may also exclude others from speaking on that land at the same time. It’s no more illegal to move the Bush haters off the property than it is to keep the Bush haters from holding their protest on the stage. Having said that, I do think that taking these people a half mile away seems unreasonable. > [@](#): > > _CTB:_ > I am simply asking the impossible: for a Bush supporter (pubbie or not) to admit that the man did something shitty, and out of bounds constitutionally. If you’re going to keep saying that, then you should actually read the other posts. Both **Dogface** and **John Mace** have supported Bush in other threads (although I don’t know that they are ardently pro-Bush), and they’ve both said that there may be problems here. So, rivers of blood, moon of sackcloth, etc. Now if we can just get **Diogenes** to say something nice about Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818/53 "2003-09-26T17:06:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*I almost hate to ask, but **Dogface** , are you really saying that anything you don’t like is therefore “liberal”? You really like those Pit threads, do you? \*\* No, anything that is fascist or crypto-fascist either is or is indistinguishable from being liberal. Liberals, conservatives, all of them are totalitarian and fascist. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818/54 "2003-09-26T17:21:35Z")
> [@](#): > > For example, if I want to hold an “Irish People Are Smelly” rally on St. Patrick’s day, and I want to have it somewhere on the St. Patty’s day parade route, the government will probably tell me that I can’t because that route has already been booked by the St. Patty’s day paraders. They booked the area first, so they get first rights to speak in that area. Their right to speak may include excluding other messages. There’s always a “Homosexuals are Going to Hell” group along the parade route of our Gay Pride parade, so I don’t think you claim is accurate. They don’t march _in_ the parade, but they’re certainly alongside it with the rest of the gathered public. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818/55 "2003-09-26T17:29:50Z")
An experiment, for anyone who cares to see the back of a Secret Service truck: - Attend Bush public appearance carrying “We Luv Ya Dubya!” placard. - Stand well outside any ‘free speech zone’, exchange quips with police, get within a pretzel hock of POTU. - Remove top layer of sign to reveal “Bush is a monkey-faced putz!” - Ask Secret Service men in what way you have suddenly became “a security issue”. Now another experiment. I want you all to imagine that I’m President of the SDMB, just for the moment. OK? Now all of those who disagree with me I want to leave the thread. Yes, I realise that this is a public forum, but this is a security issue and my authority might suffer if I’m seen near you. And besides, people might think that there’s some disagreement here and think twice about voting for me, and I don’t want that either. We must, at all times, promote an environment of happiness and unity all around my posts. Let’s not have any silly talk about your liberties, all posts after me had better be in agreement or I’ll get the mods to remove you. There’s a free speech thread that all you moaners can join over by the bottom of page three in MPSIMS, out of sight of the public and decent folk. That seem fair? ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818/56 "2003-09-26T17:30:46Z")
So, I guess the lesson to be learned here is that if one wants to protest the President, just act like a staunch supporter when entering. That should pretty much give you a front row seat. Then you just need to be quick in your protest before they toss you, or charge you with being unamerican or something. Yep, foolproof security there. Those SS guys are smart. ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818/57 "2003-09-26T17:32:15Z")
Damn Hampsters ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818/58 "2003-09-26T17:42:41Z")
I’ve talked about this issue in other threads. When I attended a Clinton/Gore rally in October, 1992, in Market Square, Pittsburgh, I was carrying an anti-Clinton sign. I was not moved. I was not arrested. I did, however, have the sign torn from my hands and was shoved around pretty hard by a bunch of union goons from the local steelworkers and miners halls. It was a common experience for people I knew at the time to have run-ins with union muscle brought in by the Clinton/Gore campaign. Some people were roughed up a little bit. One woman I knew, a 21-year-old student and College Republican, was circled and groped by about a dozen big louts. I don’t agree with “free speech zones”, but they would have been an improvement over this kind of “crowd control”. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818/59 "2003-09-26T17:58:48Z")
> [@](#): > > _Gaudere:_ > There’s always a “Homosexuals are Going to Hell” group along the parade route of our Gay Pride parade, so I don’t think you claim is accurate. They don’t march _in_ the parade, but they’re certainly alongside it with the rest of the gathered public. Sorry, I’ve certainly been unclear. The distinction is that the government can tell you to stay off the property where the speech is going on (so you can’t interfere with that speech), but can’t tell you not to speak at all. To use the parade example, you can protest outside of the parade path. Or in the case of a pro-Bush rally, it looks like the Secret Service is saying that “the rally is taking place in all these areas, but not behind those busses over there.” Again, I think they may be going farther than they need to (an unreasonable TPM restriction would be unconstitutional), but I don’t think the protesters have a constitutional right to protest in the middle of a pro-Bush rally. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818/60 "2003-09-26T18:58:14Z")
Is the purpose of the half-mile separation to keep the existence of anti-Bush sentiment away from Bush, or away from _cameras and reporters?_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-being-sued-for-segregating-public-protesters/203818.md?page=4)