# Bush Admin & FEMA start shifting blame to locals - Crass ass covering or justified? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065 "2005-09-04T17:32:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/121 "2005-09-05T21:51:11Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Once the Governor has declares a state of emergency, the Federal government can move in. The state of emergency was declared the day before the hurricane. Why does everyone keep forgetting this? You’re going outside the bounds of the discussion I was having with **Levi**. Go back and read the flow of the posts, and see what I’m objecting to about his statements. I was responding to his hypothetical, not about this particular hurricane. But even still, the governor doesn’t just declare a state of emergency and then expect the feds to rush in and take over. The state authorities are in control, unless they relinquish that control to the Feds. There are two issues that people are, I believe, confusing. 1. Who has primary responsibility to get aid to citizens in a disaster immediately? 2. Once the feds are called in for help, how soon can the help be expected? The feds were slow to respond. They screwed up royally. But, that does not obsolve the state and local officials, who have to be the first responders in any disaster. The feds simply don’t have people/equipment in place in every city of the US. They are going to take time to get there. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/122 "2005-09-05T22:13:23Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > You’re going outside the bounds of the discussion I was having with **Levi**. Go back and read the flow of the posts, and see what I’m objecting to about his statements. I was responding to his hypothetical, not about this particular hurricane. > > But even still, the governor doesn’t just declare a state of emergency and then expect the feds to rush in and take over. The state authorities are in control, unless they relinquish that control to the Feds. > > There are two issues that people are, I believe, confusing. > > 1. Who has primary responsibility to get aid to citizens in a disaster immediately? > > 2. Once the feds are called in for help, how soon can the help be expected? > > The feds were slow to respond. They screwed up royally. But, that does not obsolve the state and local officials, who have to be the first responders in any disaster. The feds simply don’t have people/equipment in place in every city of the US. They are going to take time to get there. Yeah, the local government screwed up. That’s a fact. But it’s a fact that has little to do with the rest of this country. That’s why people are not jumping down the local governments throats as badly as the federal government. The fact is, the federal government spent 4 long years and billions of taxpayer money to set up a new agency called Homeland Security. This was supposed to be our nice, bright and shiny disaster response unit. It failed miserably. That’s what people are up in arms about. The answer to question #2 is 48-72 hours. Since the request for aid came the day before the hurricane hit, we can safely say that the federal government missed the deadline. It’s in the National Response Protocol that’s been linked to, like, a miilion times already. [Here it is in HTML for those having a problem with PDF.](http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:XqZy_AfLK1AJ:www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interweb/assetlibrary/NRP_Brochure.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/123 "2005-09-05T22:32:06Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > That’s why people are not jumping down the local governments throats as badly as the federal government. According to an [ABC News poll](http://abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1094262&page=1), while most Americans blame both the federal and Lousiana gov’ts for dropping the ball, more say the state/local gov’t was not adequately prepared. Does it mean anything that [Blanco has refused to sign over control of the National Guard to the federal gov’t?](http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/05/D8CEBED81.html) I’m not exactly sure what signing over control would mean. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/124 "2005-09-05T22:37:57Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > According to an [ABC News poll](http://abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1094262&page=1), while most Americans blame both the federal and Lousiana gov’ts for dropping the ball, more say the state/local gov’t was not adequately prepared. > > Does it mean anything that [Blanco has refused to sign over control of the National Guard to the federal gov’t?](http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/05/D8CEBED81.html) I’m not exactly sure what signing over control would mean. She says she needed the troops to keep order in the city. She wanted him to bring in outside troops and he wanted to use hers. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/125 "2005-09-05T22:59:29Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Yeah, the local government screwed up. That’s a fact. But it’s a fact that has little to do with the rest of this country. That’s why people are not jumping down the local governments throats as badly as the federal government. The fact is, the federal government spent 4 long years and billions of taxpayer money to set up a new agency called Homeland Security. This was supposed to be our nice, bright and shiny disaster response unit. It failed miserably. That’s what people are up in arms about. > > The answer to question #2 is 48-72 hours. Since the request for aid came the day before the hurricane hit, we can safely say that the federal government missed the deadline. > > It’s in the National Response Protocol that’s been linked to, like, a miilion times already. [Here it is in HTML for those having a problem with PDF.](http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:XqZy_AfLK1AJ:www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interweb/assetlibrary/NRP_Brochure.pdf) I won’t argue with any of that. There’s plenty of blame to be spread around, and good dose of it hangs on the Feds. The main point I was trying to make is that in almost any disaster the very first guys you would expect to see on the scene are the local authorities-- police, fire, rescue, etc. What I’d expect from the Feds is to bring in money, manpower and equipment that the state simply can’t muster. But you’re not going to see any of that on the day 1. ---
**Author:** ![Exploding\_Kitchen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Exploding\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exploding_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/126 "2005-09-05T23:07:34Z")
It means nothing that Blanco hasn’t signed over permission. Any president can federalize the National Guard with no state authority. I feel that the local, state, and federal goverments all share the blame for the disaster response equally. Where there is no equality between them is the fact that it is the federal government’s fault (and more specifically, this administrations) that the project to shore up the levees wasn’t completed by the middle of this summer as estimated when the project began. No levee broke that was shored up by the join SELA/ACoE project. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/127 "2005-09-05T23:41:23Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > She says she needed the troops to keep order in the city. She wanted him to bring in outside troops and he wanted to use hers. Cite? [Under the White House plan, Lt. Gen. Russel L. Honoré would oversee both the National Guard and the active duty federal troops, reporting jointly to the president and Ms. Blanco.](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/05blame.html) ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/128 "2005-09-05T23:46:02Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > The Feds will not, and more importantly CANNOT, implement an evacuation plan unless they are authorized to do so by the state authorities. Does it say somewhere in that document that the Feds now can just skip that step? Because that is what Leviosaurus claimed in his post that started this discussion, and that is what I am responding to (my emphasis): Actually, I believe it does say that. Did you read my link? I’ll re-post what I think are the relevant sections: > [@](#): > > Under provisions of the Stafford Act and applicable regulations: > > ``` > * A Governor may request the President to declare a major disaster or emergency if the Governor finds that effective response to the event is beyond the combined response capabilities of the State and affected local governments. > > ``` > > [Governor requests the President declare an expedited major disaster for the State of Louisiana, 28 August (ironically, 2 days after he’d already declared one, but I guess she had to make it official, in writing)](http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf) > > Based on the findings of a joint Federal-State-local Preliminary Damage Assessment (PDA) indicating the damages are of sufficient severity and magnitude to warrant assistance under the act, the President may grant a major disaster or emergency declaration. (Note: In a particularly fast-moving or clearly devastating disaster, the PDA process may be deferred until after the declaration.) > > [The President. . . declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing.](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html) > > \ > > ``` > * DHS can use limited **pre-declaration authorities** to move initial response resources (critical goods typically needed in the immediate aftermath of a disaster such as food, water, emergency generators, etc.) closer to a potentially affected area. > > ``` > [@](#): > > Pursuant to HSPD-5, **the Secretary of Homeland Security is responsible for coordinating Federal operations** within the United States **to**. . . recover from. . . major disasters, and other emergencies. HSPD-5 further designates **the Secretary of Homeland Security as the “principal Federal official” for domestic incident management.** In this role, **the Secretary is also responsible** for coordinating Federal resources utilized in. . . recovery from. . . major disasters, or other emergencies if and when **any** of the following four conditions applies: > (1) a Federal department or agency acting under its own authority has requested DHS assistance; ([See again the President’s declaration authorizing DHS and FEMA to coordinate **all** disaster relief efforts.](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html)) > (2) the resources of State and local authorities are overwhelmed and Federal assistance has been requested; (Done) > (3) more than one Federal department or agency has become substantially involved in responding to the incident (Done); or > (4) the Secretary has been directed to assume incident management responsibilities by the President. (Done) So here’s how I read that: First, the DHS can pre-empt any formal declarations of emergency and start, albeit in some abstract limited capacity, positioning relief supplies in nearby areas (they didn’t). Then, if any one of the 4 qualifications listed above occur, it BECOMES the RESPONSIBILITY of the Secretary of DHS to coordinate recovery efforts. In any hypothetical, any one of those 4 elements would trigger said responsibility. In this specific case, we have all freaking 4! So it seems to me that the responsibility to coordinate recovery has shifted to the Feds. > [@John Mace](#): > > Absent any information about the state requesting federal aid (whch is the case in his scenario)i, the state would be expected to make evacuations happen. See above, and please let me know if you believe I have misinterpreted those passages. That does not absolve the Governor of her responsibilities, either. She damn well should’ve followed her own State’s plans and pre-positioned those school buses to aid in the evacuation. By not doing so, she then hampered the ability of the Feds to respond as effectively as they otherwise might’ve been able to and many more lives were lost than would have to have been (may she rot in hell). However, the Feds then proved themselves to be the fucking Keystone Cops here. They not only dragged their damn feet and played political games, but they outright HAMPERED the evacuation process!! (May THEY all rot in hell). ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/129 "2005-09-05T23:50:04Z")
Oh, and let me add. . . > [@](#): > > Overall Coordination of Federal Incident Management Activities > > The President leads the Nation in responding effectively and ensuring the necessary resources are applied quickly and efficiently to all Incidents of National Significance. May he rot in hell with the others. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/130 "2005-09-06T00:24:08Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Then, if any one of the 4 qualifications listed above occur, it BECOMES the RESPONSIBILITY of the Secretary of DHS to coordinate recovery efforts. > > … > > So it seems to me that the responsibility to coordinate recovery has shifted to the Feds. See above, and please let me know if you believe I have misinterpreted those passages. And yet, you are _still_ confused by the verbiage on that link. The whole point of all of the information you keep posting is to say that as of March 1, 2003 that the then new Department of Homeland Security became responsible for all of FEMA’s prior duties and responsibilities. It does not change what FEMA’s responsibility is. It does not abdicate the state’s responsibility. The state is _still_ in charge even right this second. > **[After Failures, Government Officials Play Blame Game (Published 2005)](https://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/us/nationalspecial/after-failures-government-officials-play-blame-game.html)** > > As the Bush administration tried to show a more forceful effort to help the victims of Hurricane Katrina, government officials on Sunday escalated their criticism and sniping over who was to blame for the problems plaguing the initial response. ... > [@](#): > > One sign of the continuing battle over who was in charge was Governor Blanco’s refusal to sign an agreement proposed by the White House to share control of National Guard forces with the federal authorities. > > Under the White House plan, Lt. Gen. Russel L. Honoré would oversee both the National Guard and the active duty federal troops, reporting jointly to the president and Ms. Blanco. > > **"She would lose control when she had been in control from the very beginning," said Ms. Bottcher, the governor’s press secretary.** The feds responsibility is to support LA, Miss, Alabama in _their_ recover efforts. It is also their responsibility to mitigate any damage the rest of the country will suffer because of the disaster. i.e.; releasing the oil reserves. To make what I quoted from you above accurate look at what I changed in blue. Subtle but major difference. > [@Shayna](#): > > Then, if any one of the 4 qualifications listed above occur, it BECOMES the RESPONSIBILITY of the Secretary of DHS to coordinate **federal** recovery efforts. > > … > > So it seems to me that the responsibility to coordinate **federal** recovery **assistance** has shifted to the **DHS**. See above, and please let me know if you believe I have misinterpreted those passages. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/131 "2005-09-06T00:42:01Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > And yet, you are _still_ confused by the verbiage on that link. The whole point of all of the information you keep posting is to say that as of March 1, 2003 that the then new Department of Homeland Security became responsible for all of FEMA’s prior duties and responsibilities. That is absolutely not true. Did you even read the link (not my reply, the link I provided to the actual “National Response Plan of the Department of Homeland Security”)? That isn’t even remotely what that 114 page document is about! It’s fair if you want to interpret the verbiage differenly, but utterly ridiculous to expect me to even consider your interpretation when you clearly don’t even know the first thing about what the document even _is_. It is the DHS’s version of the Louisiana Emergency Plan, outlining what is considered a national disaster requiring their assistance and the roles and responsibilities of every party to them, including when they step in and in what capacity. > [@](#): > > It does not abdicate the state’s responsibility. I believe I said the exact fucking opposite. Again, try actually reading the print in black on your screen. > [@](#): > > The state is _still_ in charge even right this second. > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/05blame.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/05blame.html) No, the state is still in charge of their own National Guard, not the entire recovery effort. > [@](#): > > The feds responsibility is to support LA, Miss, Alabama in _their_ recover efforts. Then tell me why in the name of all that is holy that they’re not only not supporting it, but HAMPERING it?!!! ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/132 "2005-09-06T01:21:56Z")
Some former FEMA people don’t seem to agree with the assesment that the feds would have had to wait on their hands until they got local permission: > [@](#): > > Under the law, [Homeland Security Secretary Michael] Chertoff said, state and local officials must direct initial emergency operations. “The federal government comes in and supports those officials,” he said. > > Chertoff’s remarks, which echoed earlier statements by President Bush, prompted withering rebukes both from former senior FEMA staffers and outside experts. > > ``` > "They can't do that," former agency chief of staff Jane Bullock said of Bush administration efforts to shift responsibility away from Washington. "The moment the president declared a federal disaster, it became a federal responsibility....The federal government took ownership over the response," she said. Bush declared a disaster in Louisiana and Mississippi when the storm hit a week ago. > > "What's awe-inspiring here is how many federal officials didn't issue any orders," said Paul C. Light, an authority on government operations at New York University. > > ``` We should also note that Blanco’s letter to the President and several other communications state over and over that the disaster is expected to be beyond state capability to deal with. There’s also the issue of the many federal resources that, slightly contrary to John Mace’s assesment about the feds just not being able to have things there in time, WERE these, but went unused for lack of the orders they required. For instance, the USS Bataan was sailing behind the hurricane in order to provide relief… but had to wait for Presidential orders. > [@](#): > > ``` > "Northcom started planning before the storm even hit. We were ready when it hit Florida, because, as you remember, it hit the bottom part of Florida, and then we were planning once it was pointed towards the Gulf Coast. > > "So, what we did, we activated what we call 'defense coordinating officers' to work with the states to say, 'OK, what do you think you will need?' And we set up staging bases that could be started. > > "We had the USS Bataan sailing almost behind the hurricane so once the hurricane made landfall, its search and rescue helicopters could be available almost immediately So, we had things ready. > > "The only caveat is: we have to wait until the president authorizes us to do so. The laws of the United States say that the military can't just act in this fashion; we have to wait for the president to give us permission." > > ``` But of course, the federal aid just happened to get there only when the President had his increasingly bizarre photo-op. It wasn’t there ready to act but not acting until his arrival, right? That was just a coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/133 "2005-09-06T01:36:13Z")
Here’s more evidence of ass-covering: [http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article\_display.jsp?vnu\_content\_id=1001054595](http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054595) Chertoff was briefed on the leeves. In fact, the situation that they were seeing was in fact WORSE than what actually happened: the overtopping that would have left the water level even higher. But of course, why would a man who isn’t at fault because his hands were tied by local foulups lie over and over again? ---
**Author:** ![fushj00mang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@fushj00mang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fushj00mang)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/134 "2005-09-06T01:47:48Z")
Hey, here’s a concept that nobody has seemed to want to put foreward. Next time the state or feds declare a state of emergency, how’s about instead of having ‘muddied chains of command’ and ‘lax coordination between agencies,’ instead the state government is dissolved, and all powers are then placed on the shoulders of the state’s Adjutant General (or NG Commandant, or whatever the state title is)? Hell, it’s those outfits which are going to be doing the heavy lifting, right? So why not give them the sole responsability, and sole authority to do something? _listens to crickets_ Or not… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/135 "2005-09-06T01:59:02Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > So here’s how I read that: First, the DHS can pre-empt any formal declarations of emergency and start, albeit in some abstract limited capacity, positioning relief supplies in nearby areas (they didn’t). True, but note that the whole idea is to allow SOME pre-positioning so that paperwork doesn’t stall things. Note the use of the term 'limitted". IOW, the feds just can’t come in and “take over”. I do agree, however, that there is no evidence that the feds used this authority to preposition anything (as they should have). > [@](#): > > Then, if any one of the 4 qualifications listed above occur, it BECOMES the RESPONSIBILITY of the Secretary of DHS to coordinate recovery efforts. In any hypothetical, any one of those 4 elements would trigger said responsibility. In this specific case, we have all freaking 4! So it seems to me that the responsibility to coordinate recovery has shifted to the Feds. See above, and please let me know if you believe I have misinterpreted those passages. Not quite. You seem to have missed one key word (my emphasis): > [@](#): > > Pursuant to HSPD-5, the Secretary of Homeland Security is responsible for coordinating Federal operations within the United States to. . . recover from. . . major disasters, You seem to be equating “operations” with “federal operations”. Are you saying that, in a state of emergency, the Sec of Homeland Security becomes the immediate supervisor of all the state and local law enforcemnet agencies? IOW, does the N.O. police chief now have to answer to the DoHL and take orders from that agency? > [@Apos](#): > > There’s also the issue of the many federal resources that, slightly contrary to John Mace’s assesment about the feds just not being able to have things there in time, WERE these, but went unused for lack of the orders they required. For instance, the USS Bataan was sailing behind the hurricane in order to provide relief… but had to wait for Presidential orders. Just to be clear, I never claimed that the feds had NO resources that could be mustered quickly. I just said that I can’t imagine that every city in the US would DEPEND on the feds to be able to do so. To the extent that federal personell or equipment WAS available, it should of course be used. Go back and re-read **Leviasarus** ’s first post to see what I was objecting to. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/136 "2005-09-06T02:37:44Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > True, but note that the whole idea is to allow SOME pre-positioning so that paperwork doesn’t stall things. Note the use of the term 'limitted". IOW, the feds just can’t come in and “take over”. I do agree, however, that there is no evidence that the feds used this authority to preposition anything (as they should have). Yes, I noted the term ‘limited’, and even isolated it and commented that the limitations were somewhat abstract, as they don’t bother to spell out in what way they are limited, which I find odd in a document that encompassing and detailed. I think it’s a gross oversight, which is probably what caused them not to bother to pre-position anything, because even they had no clue what their limitations were in that regard. Sloppy and inefficient. And no, I don’t believe that that section implies that the feds can just come in and take over, it’s addressing something else entirely at that point. But at least we agree that the feds dropped that particular ball. Good start. > [@](#): > > Not quite. You seem to have missed one key word (my emphasis): > > You seem to be equating “operations” with “federal operations”. Are you saying that, in a state of emergency, the Sec of Homeland Security becomes the immediate supervisor of all the state and local law enforcemnet agencies? IOW, does the N.O. police chief now have to answer to the DoHL and take orders from that agency? It’s not that I’m missing that word, I guess I’m just interpreting its use in this situation differently from you. Obviously if the state declares a “state of emergency,” the feds have not only no jurisdiction, but no responsibility to even respond. It’s not until the Federal Government – the President – declares it a national emergency/national disaster that the federal agencies step in. And since that’s what happened in this case, and since President Bush authorized the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts, then they are the supervising body. That means the N.O. police may still answer to their Governor, but since she has to coordinate with DHS, now that they’ve taken on that responsibility, they can direct _her_ to direct the police in certain activities. But I also believe that communication is intended to be bi-directional, and her input would be critical in the Secretary of DHS’s decision-making and effort coordinating. Again, perhaps I’m reading it all wrong. But either way, there certainly _were_ responsibilities the DHS and FEMA had, conferred on them by the President of the United States, that they did not fulfill. The role the American public were led to believe the DHS would fulfill in the event of exactly this kind of emergency, and the role they actually took, are two completely different things. _That’s_ one of the biggest failures I see after the catastrophic loss of life. We were sold a bill of goods about our security now that this body was in place, and it all came crumbling down like a house of cards when the wind started to blow. ---
**Author:** ![Floyd13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@Floyd13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floyd13)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/137 "2005-09-06T03:18:59Z")
**Stephe96** , have you read any of the other posts in all these hurricane threads? Every single one of your conservative brethen has ripped \*\*all \*\* the levels of the government in this fuck up. Of course the local people screwed the pooch here, but how does that excuse anyone else? Your obvious partisanship and cracks about liberals has only weakened your position, and quite honestly, made the rest of your opinions irrelevant and worthless. I’d say you should quit while you’re ahead, but my advice is about as late as Bush and the rest of this clusterfuck we call government was, is, and forever will be. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/138 "2005-09-06T03:20:51Z")
One of the things that scares me so badly about this whole snafu is the bill of good the country was sold on DoHS. If they can’t respond quickly and effectively to something when they had warning it was going to happen, what in the world would they do if someone decided to drop a bomb? No advance notice is usually given. ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/139 "2005-09-06T03:55:29Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > The Feds will not, and more importantly CANNOT, implement an evacuation plan unless they are authorized to do so by the state authorities. Does it say somewhere in that document that the Feds now can just skip that step? Because that is what Leviosaurus claimed in his post that started this discussion, and that is what I am responding to (my emphasis): > > > [@](#): > > > > An analogy has occurred to me in the last few days - imagine NO was hit by an atomic bomb, rather than Katrina. The effects would presumably be similar, who would you expect to step up and make evacuations happen, and ensure aid got to victims? > > > > My answer: The Department of Homeland Security, who is supposed to have plans in place for tragedies like these. In fact, the DoHS is supposed to direct FEMA in the case of hurricane disasters like Katrina, too. > > That is incorrect. Absent any information about the state requesting federal aid (whch is the case in his scenario)i, the state would be expected to make evacuations happen. _ **shaking my head** _ John, if I get you correctly, you’re saying that the Feds shouldn’t have had anything to do with the evac efforts before the hurricane hit, right? Okay, fine, I agree with you. However, in my analogy, I mentioned a _nuclear attack_. In the case of a nuclear attack, there would be no forewarning and no evac before the incident. Evacuations of survivors would occur \*after \* the event happened. In such case, there wouldn’t necessarily be any request from the local governments - because the local governments might not exist any longer. Should the DoHS sit on its hands then? As I see it, you’re entire argument can be summarized as “the DoHS could not perform its duties in New Orleans because the local government hadn’t requested help in the exact right combination of words.” As \*\*Shayna \*\* has pointed out, requests were made, statements of the state’s inability to respond were clearly spelled out. Therefore it is only the syntax you object to. In the case of a large scale disaster, I expect the DoHS to be able to look beyond issues of semantics. I also would expect them to have their resources in place immediately, in anticipation of their assistance being requested. Since they are supposed to be the big authorities on incidents such as these, I expect them to have the correct judgement about when and where their resources should be put. I expect them to have clear processes in place and be organized and effective. They failed on each of these, and this was an \*anticipated \* event. Are we to expect they will perform better in an unanticipated event? I think not. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/140 "2005-09-06T04:05:05Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Yes, I noted the term ‘limited’, and even isolated it and commented that the limitations were somewhat abstract, as they don’t bother to spell out in what way they are limited, which I find odd in a document that encompassing and detailed. I think it’s a gross oversight, which is probably what caused them not to bother to pre-position anything, because even they had no clue what their limitations were in that regard. Sloppy and inefficient. And no, I don’t believe that that section implies that the feds can just come in and take over, it’s addressing something else entirely at that point. > > But at least we agree that the feds dropped that particular ball. Good start. It’s not that I’m missing that word, I guess I’m just interpreting its use in this situation differently from you. Obviously if the state declares a “state of emergency,” the feds have not only no jurisdiction, but no responsibility to even respond. It’s not until the Federal Government – the President – declares it a national emergency/national disaster that the federal agencies step in. And since that’s what happened in this case, and since President Bush authorized the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts, then they are the supervising body. That means the N.O. police may still answer to their Governor, but since she has to coordinate with DHS, now that they’ve taken on that responsibility, they can direct _her_ to direct the police in certain activities. But I also believe that communication is intended to be bi-directional, and her input would be critical in the Secretary of DHS’s decision-making and effort coordinating. > > Again, perhaps I’m reading it all wrong. But either way, there certainly _were_ responsibilities the DHS and FEMA had, conferred on them by the President of the United States, that they did not fulfill. The role the American public were led to believe the DHS would fulfill in the event of exactly this kind of emergency, and the role they actually took, are two completely different things. _That’s_ one of the biggest failures I see after the catastrophic loss of life. We were sold a bill of goods about our security now that this body was in place, and it all came crumbling down like a house of cards when the wind started to blow. I’m not sure we’re in that much disagreement. Fuck-ups abound at all levels, and like or not, Bush is going to bear the most of the blame. Refering to your post above, did Bush declare a “national emergency” or a “state of emergency in Louisiana”? Is there a differene? Doesn’t a delcaration of a “state of emergency” have more to do with the automatic release of certain funds and personnel than a change of state vs federal authority? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065.md?page=8)