# Bush Admin & FEMA start shifting blame to locals - Crass ass covering or justified? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065 "2005-09-04T17:32:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/141 "2005-09-06T04:16:53Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > _ **shaking my head** _ You’re shaking your head? Wow, then you must be right… :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > However, in my analogy, I mentioned a _nuclear attack_. In the case of a nuclear attack, there would be no forewarning and no evac before the incident. Evacuations of survivors would occur \*after \* the event happened. In such case, there wouldn’t necessarily be any request from the local governments - because the local governments might not exist any longer. Should the DoHS sit on its hands then? Oh, now you’re moving the goalposts… Where did you say in your original post that the local gov’t didn’t exist anymore. Frankly, though, if the entire local gov’t doesn’t exist, there aren’t likely to be any survivior to evacuate. But of course if there are absolutely no local authorities left, no one would expect to the feds to sit on their hands. If the local authorities do exist, one of the very first things they’d do is request federal help. Your scenario sheds no new light on the situation we’re discussing > [@](#): > > As I see it, you’re entire argument can be summarized as “the DoHS could not perform its duties in New Orleans because the local government hadn’t requested help in the exact right combination of words.” As \*\*Shayna \*\* has pointed out, requests were made, statements of the state’s inability to respond were clearly spelled out. Therefore it is only the syntax you object to. Ummm, where did I ever say that the local gov’t in N.O. didn’t ask for federal help? > [@](#): > > In the case of a large scale disaster, I expect the DoHS to be able to look beyond issues of semantics. I also would expect them to have their resources in place immediately, in anticipation of their assistance being requested. Since they are supposed to be the big authorities on incidents such as these, I expect them to have the correct judgement about when and where their resources should be put. I expect them to have clear processes in place and be organized and effective. They failed on each of these, and this was an \*anticipated \* event. Are we to expect they will perform better in an unanticipated event? I think not. There are no issues of semantics here. There is a procedure in place for requesting federal aid. It was followed, and the federal aid came too slow. I’m not disputing that. Go back to your original post and the points I raised. You’ve strayed so far from that post now that I don’t even know what your point is anymore. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/142 "2005-09-06T05:11:12Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Refering to your post above, did Bush declare a “national emergency” or a “state of emergency in Louisiana”? Is there a differene? Doesn’t a delcaration of a “state of emergency” have more to do with the automatic release of certain funds and personnel than a change of state vs federal authority? Hasn’t it been established in another Katrina thread that Bush’s state of emergency declaration in Louisiana preceded the hurricane’s arrival because it was actually for a previous storm that had swept through over a month before Katrina hit? I’m sorry, I don’t recall which thread mentioned that and at this hour I can’t think of search terms that would find it without killing dozens of overworked hamsters. ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/143 "2005-09-06T05:15:39Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Oh, now you’re moving the goalposts… Where did you say in your original post that the local gov’t didn’t exist anymore. Frankly, though, if the entire local gov’t doesn’t exist, there aren’t likely to be any survivior to evacuate. But of course if there are absolutely no local authorities left, no one would expect to the feds to sit on their hands. If the local authorities do exist, one of the very first things they’d do is request federal help. Your scenario sheds no new light on the situation we’re discussing I’m moving goalposts? As I stated in my initial post, which you have quoted many times in a desperate attempt to cling to an ever-shrinking shred of theoretical credulity, my analogy was in the case of a **nuclear attack**. This implies a certain set of circumstances, which should be clear to anyone, I would think… But you obviously need the scenario spelled out for you line by line. I assure you no goalposts have moved. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/144 "2005-09-06T06:16:02Z")
If I read some suggestions correctly here, some of the aforementioned deaths can best be attributed to a legal nicety as regards state’s rights. Bollocks and butt-whistle! Under the circumstances, I expect nothing less from a President but immediate and massive action. If the Governor of Louisiana stands in the way of your bringing a glass of water to a dehydrated baby, instruct the 1st Cav to fucking _shoot_ the Governor of Louisiana and proceed with the mission! ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/145 "2005-09-06T06:17:25Z")
**Shayna** , I do apologize that i did not read the pdf file because for some reason I pdf files lock up on me. I assumed it had pretty much the same information linked in html format on the same site. I had read that because I used it several times the past few days as cites. I would like to read the _III. Roles and Responsibilities_ portion sometime. So to fairly address your first post I was able to find this. [**Homeland Security Presidential Directive/HSPD-5**](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030228-9.html) > [@](#): > > (6) The Federal Government recognizes the roles and responsibilities of State and local authorities in domestic incident management. Initial responsibility for managing domestic incidents generally falls on State and local authorities. The Federal Government will assist State and local authorities when their resources are overwhelmed, or when Federal interests are involved. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that your interpretation is that once the feds are directed to become part of the recovery effort, that it becomes a federal operation with the local authorities playing the assisting role. Kind of like when the FBI takes a criminal case out of local law enforcement hands in regards to crimes against federal law. The head of DHS seems to disagree with you. > **[Why FEMA Was Missing in Action](https://www.latimes.com/world/la-na-fema5sep05-story.html)** > > Most of the agency's preparedness budget and focus are related to terrorism, not disasters. > [@](#): > > Under the law, Chertoff said, state and local officials must direct initial emergency operations. “The federal government comes in and supports those officials,” he said. And while it is obvious he is developing symptoms of a bad case of CYA, it does not mean he is wrong. [http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/international\_security/v025/25.4falkenrath.html](http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/international_security/v025/25.4falkenrath.html) > [@](#): > > The fundamental structure of the U.S. emergency management system is a function of the federal structure of the government. According to Article 10 of the U.S. Constitution, responsibility for emergency and disaster management lies with the states. > [@](#): > > [EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT ASSISTANCE COMPACT](http://ssl.csg.org/compactlaws/emac.html) > > ARTICLE IV > > LIMITATIONS > Emergency forces will continue under the command and control of their regular leaders, but the organizational units will come under the operational control of the emergency services authorities of the state receiving assistance. At the heart of it, I agree with your sentiments. If the Governor of my state turned out to be an incompetent buffoon who totally neglected preparing for a natural disaster and chocked on the relief efforts, I would beg for the feds to step in and use their experience to handle the situation. That’s just not how it is. And, honestly, as much as it always irked me about all of the disparaging comments towards the US government of late, this disaster has opened my eyes. You cannot count on them to do what’s right when the chips are down. My wife and I are in the process of getting together an emergency preparedness kit. Much more extensive that what the Red Cross and DHS has on their pamphlets. > [@Shayna](#): > > Then tell me why in the name of all that is holy that they’re not only not supporting it, but HAMPERING it?!!! A very good question. Can’t wait to hear the answer myself. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/146 "2005-09-06T06:25:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > If I read some suggestions correctly here, some of the aforementioned deaths can best be attributed to a legal nicety as regards state’s rights. Bollocks and butt-whistle! > > Under the circumstances, I expect nothing less from a President but immediate and massive action. If the Governor of Louisiana stands in the way of your bringing a glass of water to a dehydrated baby, instruct the 1st Cav to fucking _shoot_ the Governor of Louisiana and proceed with the mission! Whats wrong with you!?!? Do you want to drown the baby or something? Griggin bleeding heart baby killer. 😃 [http://www.usfa.fema.gov/index.shtm](http://www.usfa.fema.gov/index.shtm) > [@](#): > > FEMA Director Michael Brown is urging all fire and emergency services departments not to respond to counties and states affected by Hurricane Katrina without being requested and lawfully dispatched by state and local authorities under mutual aid agreements and the Emergency Management Assistance Compact. Read More ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/147 "2005-09-06T06:29:40Z")
I stand corrected. Shoot this moron Brown first, then the Governor of Louisiana, and then anybody who offers any resistance to bringing aid, comfort and assitance to our own goddam people. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/148 "2005-09-06T07:04:49Z")
> [@](#): > > FEMA Director Michael Brown is urging all fire and emergency services departments not to respond to counties and states affected by Hurricane Katrina without being requested and lawfully dispatched by state and local authorities under mutual aid agreements and the Emergency Management Assistance Compact. Read More This is correct and accurate within the context of the incident command system. If people respond on their own, then it becomes an uncoordinated response, and they are stripping their own locality of response personnel. On a small scale we call it “free lancing” which is why responders are held in the manpower pool until requested. Those who choose to act on their own become part of the problem, not part of the solution. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/149 "2005-09-06T11:01:52Z")
More analysis in today’s [Wall Street Journal](http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB112597239277632387,00.html) (Requires paid subscription) > [@](#): > > Just two weeks ago, five state emergency managers brought a tough message to a meeting in Washington with Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff and his top deputies. > > “We told them straight out that they were weakening emergency management with potentially disastrous consequences,” says Dave Liebersbach, the director of Alaska’s Division of Homeland Security and Emergency Management. The department’s focus on terrorism was undermining its readiness for other catastrophes, said the visiting officials, who included emergency managers from Mississippi and Alabama. > > … > > Officials from Shelby County, Ala., for instance, last year said they could get federal money for chemical suits. But they were unable to get money for an emergency operations center that could link computers, phones and televisions to respond to tornadoes. Between 1957 and 2003, the county had 20 tornadoes that it said killed 11 people and caused more than $32 million in damages. > > Meanwhile, morale at FEMA has dropped since it was subsumed by Homeland Security. Several key jobs are unfilled and its executives are overtaxed. Its acting chief operating officer in Washington, for instance, is also the director of FEMA’s Atlanta region; his seat there is being held by another acting director. That area includes much of the hurricane-prone Southeast. > > In July, Mr. Chertoff unveiled a departmental restructuring that would cement FEMA’s reduced role. Among other moves, the plan restricted FEMA’s purview to disaster response, stripping away longstanding functions such as helping communities build houses outside flood zones. (…) On July 27, Alaska’s Mr. Liebersbach, in his role as the head of the National Emergency Management Association, an association of state emergency management directors, warned in a letter to Congress that Mr. Chertoff’s plan was nothing short of disastrous. It would have “an extremely negative impact on the people of this nation,” he wrote. > > … > > Even then, some requirements hampered speed. Because of worries that terrorists could take advantage of such chaos, FEMA now must abide by post-9/11 security procedures, such as putting air marshals on flights. That meant **stranded residents couldn’t be evacuated from the New Orleans airport until FEMA had rounded up dozens of Transportation Security Administration screeners and more than 50 federal air marshals.** Inadequate power prevented officials from firing up X-ray machines and metal detectors until the government decided evacuees could be searched manually. The whole article, for all its stinging criticism, is _still_ a whitewash. For example, it mentions “A total breakdown of communications systems.” First of all, this is _false_: people were calling from hotels, blogging, even [from the Superdome itself](http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.spain.mp/). Second, the communications systems weren’t “broken down”, they were **cut off and sabotaged by the FEMA**. [Cite 1](http://dominionpaper.ca/international_news/2005/09/06/fema_turne.html), [Cite 2](http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4610127) > [@](#): > > When the storm approached the Gulf coast I called offering simple suggestions to government types (since this was obviously from all reports going to be a terrible storm) of how to bring communications systems up as soon as the storm passed. I recommended bringing in Blimps with portable cell transceivers and VHF, UHF and other types of broadcast equipment and also equipment to aid in the search and rescue effort. No one was interested. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/150 "2005-09-06T11:18:25Z")
Two more gems > [@](#): > > The U.S. Army has a large facility, Fort Polk, in Leesville, La., about 270 miles northwest of New Orleans. Officials at Fort Polk, which has nearly 8,000 active-duty soldiers, said their contribution so far has consisted of a few dozen soldiers … The first contingent of soldiers didn’t receive orders until Saturday afternoon. > > Instead, the Pentagon chose to send upwards of 7,500 soldiers from the 1st Cavalry Division … and the 82nd Airborne Division. … Soldiers from the 82nd Airborne Division are able to deploy anywhere in the world in 18 hours. It took several days for them to arrive on the ground in Louisiana. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/151 "2005-09-06T13:51:40Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Hasn’t it been established in another Katrina thread that Bush’s state of emergency declaration in Louisiana preceded the hurricane’s arrival because it was actually for a previous storm that had swept through over a month before Katrina hit? > > I’m sorry, I don’t recall which thread mentioned that and at this hour I can’t think of search terms that would find it without killing dozens of overworked hamsters. Just found [the post about the disaster area declaration](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6538190&postcount=79), and indeed, it was for Tropical Storm Cindy: > [@](#): > > Just one week ago the White House declared that a major disaster existed in Louisiana, specifically most of the areas (such as Jefferson Parish) that are now under water. Was the White House psychic about the disaster ahead? Not exactly. In fact the major disaster referred to Tropical Storm Cindy, which struck the state a full seven weeks earlier. That announcement triggered federal aid for the stricken areas, where the clean-up had been on hold for almost two months while the White House chewed things over. That’s a quotation from the _Newsweek_ article cited in the post. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/152 "2005-09-06T14:25:18Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > This is correct and accurate within the context of the incident command system. If people respond on their own, then it becomes an uncoordinated response, and they are stripping their own locality of response personnel. On a small scale we call it “free lancing” which is why responders are held in the manpower pool until requested. Those who choose to act on their own become part of the problem, not part of the solution. Hence, drowning the baby. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/153 "2005-09-06T14:30:09Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > I’m moving goalposts? As I stated in my initial post, which you have quoted many times in a desperate attempt to cling to an ever-shrinking shred of theoretical credulity, my analogy was in the case of a **nuclear attack**. This implies a certain set of circumstances, which should be clear to anyone, I would think… But you obviously need the scenario spelled out for you line by line. I assure you no goalposts have moved. From your original post (my emphasis): > [@](#): > > An analogy has occurred to me in the last few days - imagine NO was hit by an atomic bomb, rather than Katrina. The effects would presumably be similar, who would you expect to step up and make evacuations happen, and ensure aid got to victims? I guess to you, “similiar” means “completely different”, since all state and local government remained intact during Katrina. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/154 "2005-09-06T17:41:29Z")
Ok boys, now you’re just sniping and no one’s going to win this one. I’m tempted to put you both over my knee. 😉 **John Mace** , I don’t know the difference between the Governor’s declaration and that of the President. I guess I _assumed_ that once the President made a declaration of a disaster, it became a “national” or “federal” one. We all know what happens when we assume, so perhaps I was wrong. **EddyTeddyFreddy’s** post was interesting, though, and makes me wonder just what, specifically, Bush _has_ declared for this particular disaster, and how that might affect the responsibilities of the various parties. I am glad, however, to be finding common ground with you. It feels good for a change! > [@AFAIKnow](#): > > **Shayna** , I do apologize that i did not read the pdf file because for some reason I pdf files lock up on me. I assumed it had pretty much the same information linked in html format on the same site. I had read that because I used it several times the past few days as cites. See above about assuming. I guess we’re all guilty of that sometimes. Apology accepted. 🙂 > [@](#): > > I would like to read the _III. Roles and Responsibilities_ portion sometime. So to fairly address your first post I was able to find this. > > [**Homeland Security Presidential Directive/HSPD-5**](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030228-9.html) > > > [@](#): > > > > (6) The Federal Government recognizes the roles and responsibilities of State and local authorities in domestic incident management. Initial responsibility for managing domestic incidents generally falls on State and local authorities. The Federal Government will assist State and local authorities when their resources are overwhelmed, or when Federal interests are involved. > > Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that your interpretation is that once the feds are directed to become part of the recovery effort, that it becomes a federal operation with the local authorities playing the assisting role. Kind of like when the FBI takes a criminal case out of local law enforcement hands in regards to crimes against federal law. Well, kindof. Let’s break it down a little further and add the next paragraph for discussion, as well. > [@](#): > > (6) The Federal Government recognizes the roles and responsibilities of State and local authorities in domestic incident management. Yes, that’s just common courtesy and really doesn’t clarify _what_ those roles and responsibilities are. But it further says: > [@](#): > > \*\*Initial \*\* responsibility for managing domestic incidents generally falls on State and local authorities. Of course! That’s obvious, and, I think, what everyone expects. _Initial_ responsibility belongs to the state. So where and when does it shift, _if_ it shifts? > [@](#): > > The Federal Government will assist State and local authorities when their resources are overwhelmed, or when Federal interests are involved. Ok, that still doesn’t say much, but as you interpret it, the Federal agencies are “assisting,” meaning they can’t be “running” the process. Fair enough, but it’s still so fucking vague. > [@](#): > > The Secretary will coordinate with State and local governments to ensure adequate planning, equipment, training, and exercise activities. Ok, now we’re getting a little somewhere. The phrase that stands out for me in this section is “to ensure.” Perhaps I’m reading too much into it, but if someone acts “to ensure” something, to me that implies it’s their job to make sure it gets done. > [@](#): > > The Secretary will also provide assistance to State and local governments to develop all-hazards plans and capabilities, including those of greatest importance to the security of the United States, and will ensure that State, local, and Federal plans are compatible. More almost meaningless gobbledygook. But this part refers to pre-disaster planning stuff, as opposed to post-disaster efforts. However, if they’re talking about things that are of the greatest importance to the United States, I hardly think the Feds are abdicting those things to the states, either. But they’re still just talking in fucking circles! > [@](#): > > (7) The Federal Government recognizes the role that the private and nongovernmental sectors play in preventing, preparing for, responding to, and recovering from terrorist attacks, major disasters, and other emergencies. The Secretary will coordinate with the private and nongovernmental sectors to ensure adequate planning, equipment, training, and exercise activities and to promote partnerships to address incident management capabilities. Aha! Here they are recognizing _my_ role and offering to coordinate with me, too. Does that mean I’m in charge, or are they? That was kindof tonge-in-cheek, but perhaps you can see why this paragraph and its interpretation shines some light on the possible meaning of the preceeding paragraph. I still _think_ it’s supposed to mean, “we’re the coordinating body, so therefore we’re in charge.” > [@AFAIK](#): > > The head of DHS seems to disagree with you. > > [http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-fema5sep05,0,685581.story](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-fema5sep05,0,685581.story) > > > [@](#): > > > > Under the law, Chertoff said, state and local officials must direct **initial** emergency operations. “The federal government comes in and supports those officials,” he said. Again, there’s that word “initial.” What means this word? How long does the “initial” response last? Who the hell in this clusterfuck knows? > [@](#): > > And while it is obvious he is developing symptoms of a bad case of CYA, it does not mean he is wrong. > > [http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/international\_security/v025/25.4falkenrath.html](http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/international_security/v025/25.4falkenrath.html) > > > [@](#): > > > > The fundamental structure of the U.S. emergency management system is a function of the federal structure of the government. According to Article 10 of the U.S. Constitution, responsibility for emergency and disaster management lies with the states. Ok, I’m reading this link and I have to stop a moment to both laugh and cringe at this part: > [@](#): > > The location of the domestic preparedness program at the nexus of two distinct functional disciplines is one of its two sources of difficulty, the second being its origin in a series of discrete, uncoordinated legislative appropriations and administrative actions. A detailed history of the domestic preparedness program, presented in the article’s third section, shows that the program is the result not of any guiding strategic concept but rather of ad hoc initiatives by individual policymakers. Fuckin’ Keystone Cops, I tell ya! Anyway, on with the discussion, commenting as I read through it. From what I’m reading so far, this article seems to be primarily addressing terrorist acts, as opposed to natural disasters, but tying the response agencies together because they’re “related.” I found this interesting. . . > [@](#): > > As a policy initiative, the domestic preparedness program is essentially an outgrowth and subset of U.S. counterterrorism policy. In practice, however, the program is functionally unrelated to virtually every other U.S. counterterrorism activity. Instead it is functionally related to disaster management, a government service that heretofore has had almost nothing to do with counterterrorism. The domestic preparedness program is thus a hybrid of these two distinct functions, a fact that lies at the heart of many of the program’s problems. We’re sure finding that out, aren’t we?! Ah, now I’m coming to your quoted paragraph. Seems you may have stopped reading after that. Here’s the rest: > [@](#): > > Although not mandated by the Constitution, the role of the federal government in the emergency management system has grown steadily since the early nineteenth century. 30 American public leaders recognize that major disasters often overwhelm the response capabilities of state and local governments. Therefore the federal government has assumed responsibility for providing supplemental assistance and resources to state and local authorities faced with overwhelming disasters. The system for supplying this assistance was ad hoc [End Page 156] and extremely fragmented until the 1970s, when two landmark reforms sought to impose coherence. The first was **the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act of 1974** , which clarified the types of assistance that the federal government could provide in a disaster and established the current mechanism for releasing this assistance through **a presidential disaster declaration** issued at the request of a governor. 31 The second was the creation of the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) in 1979, which consolidated multiple disaster and emergency assistance programs that had emerged throughout the federal government. **FEMA’s core responsibility is to coordinate all financial, operational, and technical assistance to state and local agencies during disasters** , which it does through its Washington headquarters and ten regional offices that work closely with these agencies. FEMA’s mission has grown to include restoring and reconstructing areas damaged in disasters, as well as reducing the vulnerability of communities to disasters through programs that educate and train response personnel and exercise these learned skills via simulated disaster scenarios. What do you see as the level of responsibility of someone who’s charged with “coordinating” things? Perhaps we’re working from different understandings of what that word means, which is where we keep running into disagreement with one another. Not "coordinate _with_, but “_to_ coordinate,” because to me there’s subtle but important difference. If my boss asks me to coodinate with a co-worker, I assume he means we should work together to resolve an issue. If, however, he asks me “to coordinate” several co-workers on a project, I assume he wants me to oversee it and make sure it gets done. > [@](#): > > At the heart of it, I agree with your sentiments. If the Governor of my state turned out to be an incompetent buffoon who totally neglected preparing for a natural disaster and chocked on the relief efforts, I would beg for the feds to step in and use their experience to handle the situation. That’s just not how it is. I’m not sure that’s the case. I just couldn’t get past the first 33 pages of that document and most of it is written so poorly that it’s a wonder anyone anywhere knows who should do what, where, when and how. > [@](#): > > And, honestly, as much as it always irked me about all of the disparaging comments towards the US government of late, this disaster has opened my eyes. You cannot count on them to do what’s right when the chips are down. That does seem to be the bottom line. > [@](#): > > My wife and I are in the process of getting together an emergency preparedness kit. Much more extensive that what the Red Cross and DHS has on their pamphlets. You can do even more, if you’re interested. I HIGHLY recommend FEMA’s [CERT program](http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/CERT/overview.asp). They’re offered in every major metropolitan area and many, many smaller communities all over the country. My husband and I have [taken the course](http://www.amschwartz.net/jillandthomas/cert.html) in 3 different jurisdictions (where we live, where we work and through the city of Los Angeles) and can attest to it being a great course that is very rewarding. Call your local fire or police department, or check [this list](http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/CERT/dir.asp) (they rely on self-reporting, though, so can’t be relied upon as complete). ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/155 "2005-09-06T18:27:20Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I guess to you, “similiar” means “completely different”, since all state and local government remained intact during Katrina. So, John Mace concludes that the Department of Homeland Security is entirely ready to deal with a nuclear attack, because nothing in the current situation equates whatsoever with the level of devastation or organization confusion currently being experienced in New Orleans. Okay fine whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/156 "2005-09-06T18:30:52Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > So, John Mace concludes that the Department of Homeland Security is entirely ready to deal with a nuclear attack, because nothing in the current situation equates whatsoever with the level of devastation or organization confusion currently being experienced in New Orleans. > > Okay fine whatever. Er, that should say “nothing in **that \*\* situation equates whatsoever with the level of devastation or organization** al\*\* confusion currently being experienced in N.O.” Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/157 "2005-09-06T19:35:16Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Ok boys, now you’re just sniping and no one’s going to win this one. I’m tempted to put you both over my knee. 😉 Hey, all he has to do is admit that he made a stupid analogy and didn’t think it thru all the way. If he wants to keep defendingi it, I’m going to keep pointing out how stupid it was. 🙂 From your respon to **EFT** : > [@](#): > > Ah, now I’m coming to your quoted paragraph. Seems you may have stopped reading after that. Here’s the rest: What do you see as the level of responsibility of someone who’s charged with “coordinating” things? Perhaps we’re working from different understandings of what that word means, which is where we keep running into disagreement with one another. Not "coordinate _with_, but “_to_ coordinate,” because to me there’s subtle but important difference. If my boss asks me to coodinate with a co-worker, I assume he means we should work together to resolve an issue. If, however, he asks me “to coordinate” several co-workers on a project, I assume he wants me to oversee it and make sure it gets done. But if you look at what is being “coordinated” it becomes clearer: > [@](#): > > FEMA’s core responsibility is to coordinate all financial, operational, and technical \*\*assistance _to state and local agencies_ during disasters, which it does through its Washington headquarters and ten regional offices that work closely with these agencies. FEMA’s mission has grown to include restoring and reconstructing areas damaged in disasters, as well as reducing the vulnerability of communities to disasters through programs that educate and train response personnel and exercise these learned skills via simulated disaster scenarios. What that means is that FEMA is a one-stop shopping place for getting whatever the feds will give, most of which is financian assistance. Note that the main operational function of FEMA is said to be “restoration”-- ie, rebuilding after the storm has past. A btter analogy would be if your boss told you to coordinate all the stuff from “headquarters” that the satellite branch needed to complete it’s mission. He didn’t tell you to “complete the mission”, just make sure the satellite office has what it needs. The last sentence is not a statement about the operations in effect a day or so before the disaster hits, but about continuously working with the local gov’t to ensure that the local gov’t has adequate plans and preparations. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/158 "2005-09-06T19:48:11Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > From your respon to **AFAIK** : > But if you look at what is being “coordinated” it becomes clearer: Heh. Allow me to highlight yet a different set of words. . . > [@](#): > > FEMA’s core responsibility is **to coordinate** all financial, operational, and technical assistance to state and local agencies **during** disasters, which it does through its Washington headquarters and ten regional offices that work closely with these agencies. FEMA’s mission **has grown to include** restoring and reconstructing areas damaged in disasters, as well as reducing the vulnerability of communities to disasters through programs that educate and train response personnel and exercise these learned skills via simulated disaster scenarios. So we still interpret it differently. I can’t find where “most” of what they give is financial assistance, nor do I see where the “main” function is restoration – that was an add-on service it grew into. Neither am I clear on how “mostly” financial assistance occurs _during_ a disaster. Hey, if we can’t figure this shit out reading the same paragraph between us, is it any wonder that the bureaucrats can’t figure it out either?! What a monumental mess. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/159 "2005-09-06T19:49:06Z")
**Shayna** : That post didn’t come out the way I wanted it. As I read that portion from the FEMA quote, I wanted to point out the difference between saying: _coordinate assistance provide to the local agencies…_ as opposed to: \*coordinate and manage all federral activities taking place in the region… - If I think about this in terms of standard project management practices, one should be able to point to the one person who is in charge of the project. Who’s baby is it? It’s not Bush, it’s not the FEMA director, it’s not the LA governor. It’s the highest level person whose **one and only job** during the crisis is to manage the crisis. I can’t for the life of me figure out who that person is, and that might be one of the problems. But lets ask ourselves… If we were to design the optimal system, would that “project manager” be a local/state official or a federal federal official? I can’t see that it would make sense for the person to be federal. What’s missing in this whole process is “who is the guy in charge”. It’s not Bush (although if it’s a federal guy, Bush is responisble for naming him) and it’s not Blanko (although if it’s a state guy, it’s Blanko’s responsibilty for naming him). ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065/160 "2005-09-06T20:31:48Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > If I think about this in terms of standard project management practices, one should be able to point to the one person who is in charge of the project. Who’s baby is it? It’s not Bush, it’s not the FEMA director, it’s not the LA governor. It’s the highest level person whose **one and only job** during the crisis is to manage the crisis. I can’t for the life of me figure out who that person is, and that might be one of the problems. Ahem. > [@](#): > > Overall Coordination of Federal Incident Management Activities > > **The President** leads the Nation in responding effectively and ensuring the necessary resources are applied quickly and efficiently to all Incidents of National Significance. As necessary, the Assistant to the President for Homeland Security convenes interagency meetings to coordinate policy issues. Though White House-level coordination mechanisms are not described in detail in the NRP, all other Federal coordinating mechanisms and entities described in the NRP support, and are consistent with, **White House-level** interagency coordination. > > **During actual** or potential **Incidents** of National Significance, the overall coordination of Federal incident management activities is executed through the Secretary of Homeland Security. Other Federal departments and agencies carry out their incident management and emergency response authorities and responsibilities within this overarching coordinating framework. > > The Secretary of Homeland Security utilizes multiagency structures at the headquarters, regional, and field levels to coordinate efforts and provide appropriate support to the incident command structure. At the Federal headquarters level, incident information-sharing, operational planning, and deployment of Federal resources are coordinated by the Homeland Security Operations Center (HSOC), and its component element, the NRCC. So now we know who’s shoulders it falls on on the Federal Level; the Secretary of the DoHS. But are they “in charge” _over_ the people at state level? Bloody fuck I can’t figure it out anymore. But to answer your question. . . > [@John Mace](#): > > But lets ask ourselves… If we were to design the optimal system, would that “project manager” be a local/state official or a federal federal official? I can’t see that it would make sense for the person to be federal. What’s missing in this whole process is “who is the guy in charge”. It’s not Bush (although if it’s a federal guy, Bush is responisble for naming him) and it’s not Blanko (although if it’s a state guy, it’s Blanko’s responsibilty for naming him). I think in a situation like this, it absolutely should be someone at the federal level; in particular, the Secretary of the DoHS. Why? Because _somebody_ has to step up. We’ve already seen what happens when there are too many chiefs and not enough indians, and it’s a nightmare I hope we never have to live through again. Some would justifiably argue that since the state is the one in disaster, the state would be in a better position to lead, or “coordinate.” However, we’ve seen that a disaster of this scope doesn’t only affect the state, nor does it only affect one particular state. So if Louisiana has to be in charge of DoHS and FEMA’s response and resource coordination in Louisiana, and Missississippi has to be in charge of it in Missississippi, and Alabama has to be in charge of things in Alabama, who the hell does FEMA help first? How do they know where to direct their resources? State A says “send us ‘this’, like as in yesterday – pronto!” Meanwhile, state B says, “Come here, we need ‘this’ here, too!” Now you’ve got all the indians bossing around the chief. It simply doesn’t make any sense. Add to that the national ramifications of this disaster. I’d definitely say this qualifies as an “Incident of National Significance.” One of our major ports is compromised, fuel prices are going up nationally, I suspect that when the banks take the hit _they’re_ going to take on all the non-payment of outstanding mortgages and small business loans, we’re going to see interest rates start to skyrocket, and so on. So I think it’s in the entire country’s best interest to have the feds step in and do the job they promised us they’d do – keep our homeland secure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fema-start-shifting-blame-to-locals-crass-ass-covering-or-justified/320065.md?page=9)