# Bush Admin fomented the Gaza Strip civil war?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2008, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900 "2008-03-10T23:02:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900/1 "2008-03-10T23:02:34Z")
[_Vanity Fair_ reports:](http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804) > [@](#): > > According to [Mohammed] Dahlan [leader of Fatah in Gaza], it was Bush who had pushed legislative elections in the Palestinian territories in January 2006, despite warnings that Fatah was not ready. After Hamas—whose 1988 charter committed it to the goal of driving Israel into the sea—won control of the parliament, Bush made another, deadlier miscalculation. > > _Vanity Fair_ has obtained confidential documents, since corroborated by sources in the U.S. and Palestine, which lay bare a covert initiative, approved by Bush and implemented by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Deputy National Security Adviser Elliott Abrams, to provoke a Palestinian civil war. The plan was for forces led by Dahlan, and armed with new weapons supplied at America’s behest, to give Fatah the muscle it needed to remove the democratically elected Hamas-led government from power. (The State Department declined to comment.) > > But the secret plan backfired, resulting in a further setback for American foreign policy under Bush. Instead of driving its enemies out of power, the U.S.-backed Fatah fighters inadvertently provoked Hamas to seize total control of Gaza. > > \ > > Within the Bush administration, the Palestinian policy set off a furious debate. One of its critics is David Wurmser, the avowed neoconservative, who resigned as Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief Middle East adviser in July 2007, a month after the Gaza coup. > > Wurmser accuses the Bush administration of “engaging in a dirty war in an effort to provide a corrupt dictatorship [led by Abbas] with victory.” He believes that Hamas had no intention of taking Gaza until Fatah forced its hand. “It looks to me that what happened wasn’t so much a coup by Hamas but an attempted coup by Fatah that was pre-empted before it could happen,” Wurmser says. Urk. Just urk. Even for the Bush Admin this is . . . well, incredible. An overt betrayal of W’s purported commitment to ME democracy. A bloody crime. A monumental cock-up. All in one. And now Bush wants to make peace in Israel/Palestine before his term ends. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900/2 "2008-03-11T12:39:34Z")
Interesting article. Did you have any evidence that your characterizations of what the article alleges are even remotely true? For instance, you refer to it as a “crime”. Your article mentions specifically > [@](#): > > “It was close to the margins,” says a former intelligence official with experience in covert programs. “But it probably wasn’t illegal.” The rest of it seems to be much of a piece - you claim this is a betrayal of a commitment to Middle East peace, whereas the article states repeatedly that the idea was to replace the terrorist government of Hamas with a government that would renounce terrorism. On reflection, I was going to do a bit more analysis of the lies and misrepresentations in the article, but it doesn’t seem to be worth the effort. For those who gulp the Hamas terrorist Kool-aid without question, no effort is sufficient. For reasonable folks, what is presented to date is enough. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900/3 "2008-03-11T12:49:58Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] For reasonable folks, what is presented to date is enough. [/QUOTE] Along with mainlining the neocon morphine. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900/4 "2008-03-11T13:31:45Z")
So, nothing. OK. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900/5 "2008-03-11T13:33:17Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] For instance, you refer to it as a “crime”. [/quote] :rolleyes: When one says, “It’s a crime!” that is not always the same as saying “It’s illegal!” As you know. [QUOTE=Shodan] For The rest of it seems to be much of a piece - you claim this is a betrayal of a commitment to Middle East peace, whereas the article states repeatedly that the idea was to replace the terrorist government of Hamas with a government that would renounce terrorism. [/QUOTE] No, I said it was a betrayal of W’s avowed commitment to ME **democracy,** not peace. Hamas did after all defeat Fatah in a free and fair election. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900/6 "2008-03-11T13:45:53Z")
In what sense does this not constitute aiding terrorists, is my question. Scary that I can’t get upset about this sort of thing. Intellectually, I know it’s really bad shit, and the Bushies had no business arming this sort of outfit. But they’ve done so many outrageous things, it’s hard to get upset about one more. The lot of them should have been impeached years ago. And apparently they’re doing [massive domestic wiretapping without warrants](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3/10/135734/728/290/473626). My reaction? An awareness that I _should_ have a reaction. That’s it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900/7 "2008-03-11T14:51:12Z")
> [@](#): > > In what sense does this not constitute aiding terrorists, is my question. So trying to get the terrorists of Hamas out of the government constitutes aiding them? Pushing for elections is aiding terrorism? Cutting off funds to organizations that engage in suicide bombings is aiding terrorism? I think we are venturing into another of **RTFirefly** ’s patented “let’s say things that are so bizarre that they cannot be discussed and win the debate that way” approaches to GD. Fine and dandy - if you define “aiding terrorism” as “trying to get them to live up to their agreement to stop murdering civilians”, then Bush and Co. were aiding terrorism, all right. Just out of curiosity, what flavor was the Kool-aid? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900/8 "2008-03-11T15:01:40Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] So trying to get the terrorists of Hamas out of the government constitutes aiding them? [/QUOTE] In this particular instance **Fatah** was practicing terrorism. Of course, they’re not really terrorists, they’re just . . . some guys who practice terrorism . . . or something . . . ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900/9 "2008-03-11T15:09:55Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Hamas did after all defeat Fatah in a free and fair election. [/QUOTE] Yeah, and they were just on the cusp of passing the Law to Remedy the Distress of the People and the Nation. Bush’s interference is nothing short of Hitlerish! ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900/10 "2008-03-11T15:12:02Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] So trying to get the terrorists of Hamas out of the government constitutes aiding them? Pushing for elections is aiding terrorism? [/QUOTE] There were elections. Hamas won. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900/11 "2008-03-11T15:17:55Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] There were elections. Hamas won. [/QUOTE] And people who win electons are always good, peaceful people. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900/12 "2008-03-11T15:21:58Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] And people who win electons are always good, peaceful people. [/QUOTE] No - as the last two US elections show. Still doesn’t give anyone else the right to overthrow an elected govt even if it is engaged in terrorism. In the US case it just highlights yet again, the two-faced hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900/13 "2008-03-11T15:24:35Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Yeah, and they were just on the cusp of passing the Law to Remedy the Distress of the People and the Nation. [/QUOTE] 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900/14 "2008-03-11T15:27:19Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] No - as the last two US elections show. Still doesn’t give anyone else the right to overthrow an elected govt even if it is engaged in terrorism. In the US case it just highlights yet again, the two-faced hypocrisy. [/QUOTE] Why not? Why can’t you fight a war against an elected government? Are elected governments sacroscent? BTW, elections don’t make a country a democracy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900/15 "2008-03-11T15:27:56Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] And people who win electons are always good, peaceful people. [/QUOTE] No, but they are always the people who win elections. If you’re really committed to democracy, which Bush claims to be, you have to be committed to accepting the results whether you like them or not. I could at least kindasorta understand the thinking behind W’s (and Israel’s) refusal to **recognize** the Hamas government, but arming their enemies and starting a civil war goes way beyond. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900/16 "2008-03-11T15:30:24Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] BTW, elections don’t make a country a democracy. [/QUOTE] No, you need elections **and** a genuinely effective government resulting (Iraq has the first but not the second). But no third thing is needed – is it? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900/17 "2008-03-11T15:48:26Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] No, you need elections **and** a genuinely effective government resulting (Iraq has the first but not the second). But no third thing is needed – is it? [/QUOTE] You also need a democratic culture, one that believes in freedom of speech, tolerance, moderation and the free exchange of ideas - and most importantly, one that believes in democracy. Do you really believe Hamas will allow another election, or at least one that’ll threaten its power? Incidentally, Dahlan is a useless, corrupt thug, and always has been. The US were idiots to rely on him… not that Fatah can offer anyone better. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900/18 "2008-03-11T16:40:28Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] You also need a democratic culture, one that believes in freedom of speech, tolerance, moderation and the free exchange of ideas - and most importantly, one that believes in democracy. Do you really believe Hamas will allow another election, or at least one that’ll threaten its power? [/QUOTE] You seem to be saying democracy is **impossible** in the OT’s – which, if true, can have been no less obvious in January 2006 than it is now, so why did Bush insist on elections? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900/19 "2008-03-11T16:44:46Z")
Because he’s an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900/20 "2008-03-11T16:45:49Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] Because he’s an idiot. [/QUOTE] I’m glad we agree on **something!** [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-fomented-the-gaza-strip-civil-war/440900.md?page=2)