# Bush Admin planning post-Labor-Day "product rollout" of war-with-Iran hysteria? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2007, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520 "2007-08-30T17:21:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520/121 "2007-09-05T01:55:40Z")
[QUOTE=Measure for Measure] Not sure if it’s worth commenting now but **Ravenman** :I thought they called the Republican loss. [http://www.forecastingprinciples.com/Political/election\_2006.html](http://www.forecastingprinciples.com/Political/election_2006.html) [/QUOTE] Sorry, I was thinking of the Iowa Electronic Markets, which weren’t even close: [http://iemweb.biz.uiowa.edu/graphs/graph\_Congress06.cfm](http://iemweb.biz.uiowa.edu/graphs/graph_Congress06.cfm) ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520/122 "2007-09-05T02:20:51Z")
I’m also unsure what your cite has to do with intrade, which isn’t mentioned by “Polly”. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520/123 "2007-09-05T02:39:17Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Nope. [/quote] **John** , I’m failing to see your point. If someone harbored those responsible for 9/11, in my view that is covered by my statement that the targets must be “connected” to the attacks. The phrase about preventing further attacks doesn’t expand the circle of those covered by the AUMF, it arguably restricts it further. > [@](#): > > He does-- the precedents are there aplenty. Which is kind of my point. **Measure for Measure** :To clarify my earlier post, when I referred to bloggers on one hand and “others” on the… uh, other; I mean reputable journalists to be the “other.” And I’m just failing to see what kind of “catch” there is here since (1) there’s been predictions of an imminent attack on Iran for years now and (B) it hasn’t happened yet and thirdly, nothing resembling the propaganda offensive predicted by the OP has happened in lo this one day after Labor Day. If some serious “product rollout” occurs, I’ll give credit where it is due, but literally NOTHING has happened yet! And finally, to nobody in particular, even though I identify as a liberal, I’m kind of amazed by how folks who I’m nominally supposed to be aligned with call for impeachment at the drop of a hat, but when I say that starting an unauthorized war would be the end of the Bush presidency, I only get one pretty anti-Bush Republican to agree. I’m kind of at a loss for words when liberals brush off a fucking war with fucking Iran at this fucked up time as not being sufficient for impeachment and conviction. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520/124 "2007-09-05T02:43:17Z")
[QUOTE=Measure for Measure] --------- And if I haven’t said this before, if the President tried to start yet another war cloaked in 9-11 rhetoric, I think he’d be laughed out of the room and probably straight to the Senate for his trial. [/QUOTE] Why? That seems like an unwarranted assumption to me. Both the GOP and the Dems buy into the CW that Iran is dangerous and must be dealt with. See the Webb and Lieberman amendments I talked about earlier. Plus, I doubt he’d explicitly blame Iran for 9/11. He would definitely reference 9/11 like crazy, but the excuses for bombing Iran would be 1) Iran is attacking our troops in Iraq 2) they’re working on nuclear weapons and 3) they are helping Al Qaeda. I simply can not fathom a scenario where the Dems would cry foul, since they collectively believe those points and, come on, can you imagine them impeaching Bush “as our brave service members are taking fire,” as the talking heads would say? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520/125 "2007-09-05T02:47:36Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] And finally, to nobody in particular, even though I identify as a liberal, I’m kind of amazed by how folks who I’m nominally supposed to be aligned with call for impeachment at the drop of a hat, but when I say that starting an unauthorized war would be the end of the Bush presidency, I only get one pretty anti-Bush Republican to agree. I’m kind of at a loss for words when liberals brush off a fucking war with fucking Iran at this fucked up time as not being sufficient for impeachment and conviction. [/QUOTE] I’m pretty sure most liberals on this board and on the 'net in general think Bush should’ve been impeached a long time ago. I’m sure they’d agree that attacking Iran should lead to impeachment. We’re only pointing out that the Dems would strongly disagree. Besides, imagine what sort of precedent that would set – impeachment for starting wars? Or just bombing a country? The Dems want some of that when they put Mrs. Clinton in the seat. I’m sure she’ll bomb all sorts of random third world countries, just like her husband. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520/126 "2007-09-05T03:19:02Z")
[QUOTE=marshmallow] Besides, imagine what sort of precedent that would set – impeachment for starting wars? Or just bombing a country? The Dems want some of that when they put Mrs. Clinton in the seat. I’m sure she’ll bomb all sorts of random third world countries, just like her husband. [/QUOTE] There just aren’t enough :rolleyes: . ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520/127 "2007-09-05T04:00:16Z")
[QUOTE=squeegee] I’m also unsure what your cite has to do with intrade, which isn’t mentioned by “Polly”. [/QUOTE] Intrade and Tradesports are the same company. They’ve adjusted their branding a little though, so political bets are no longer made via Tradesports (although they have links to Intrade). IEM: Interesting graph. I’m not sure what to make of it: perhaps the $500 per player limit may have played a role: IEM is a nonprofit operation of the University of Iowa’s business school. But their figures lined up in late October, so who knows? **Ravenman** : “If some serious “product rollout” occurs, I’ll give credit where it is due, but literally NOTHING has happened yet!” Well, not literally. There’s the Newsweek piece, the Gingrich speech next Monday and the AEI panel on Monday discussing, “Michael Ledeen’s new book, The Iranian Time Bomb: The Mullah Zealots’ Quest for Destruction.” As [the Ackerman link](http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004064.php) stated, the relevant audience appears to be the Joint Chiefs. I think the rumor is confirmed --Cheney said “Jump” and AEI wagged its collective tail-- but the scope of this rollout is still unclear. ----------- I’m kind of at a loss for words when liberals brush off a fucking war with fucking Iran at this fucked up time as not being sufficient for impeachment and conviction. [Normative vs. positive analysis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative), my friend. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520/128 "2007-09-05T05:39:39Z")
Its not that I don’t crave impeachment, _mon ami_, its that I don’t think it makes any difference to this man. Lord knows, he’s done enough to merit it ten times over. And its not even so much that he will simply start a war, its that he fosters an environment _conducive_ to war. One garbled order, one misunderstood manuever, one “damn fool thing in the Balkans” (so to speak). What we have now is a situation which makes people nervous and stupid. It may take two to tango, but it really only takes one to war. And that one doesn’t even have to be willing or intentional, merely clumsy. How do you tell the difference between stern and forceful language and goading them with a sharp stick? If one Iranian so much as stubs the toe of one of Our Heroes, The Leader will be on all channels, sombrely addressing the nation that war by aggression has been forced upon him, and that all good Americans shall rally to the flag, which just happens to be draped around him. All the arguments against the likelihood of war are entirely reasonable, therein lies the flaw. We are not in the thrall of reasonable people. We are led by an assortment of scoundrels, jackals and fools and have to hope that the counsel of the scoundrels prevails. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520/129 "2007-09-05T09:05:50Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] There just aren’t enough :rolleyes: . [/QUOTE] I’m sorry, which part of my statement rubbed you the wrong way? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520/130 "2007-09-05T13:45:20Z")
[QUOTE=marshmallow] I’m sorry, which part of my statement rubbed you the wrong way? [/QUOTE] “I’m sure she’ll bomb all sorts of random third world countries, just like her husband.” Unless it was intended ironically? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520/131 "2007-09-05T14:07:14Z")
[QUOTE=Measure for Measure] Well, not literally. There’s the Newsweek piece, the Gingrich speech next Monday and the AEI panel on Monday discussing, “Michael Ledeen’s new book, The Iranian Time Bomb: The Mullah Zealots’ Quest for Destruction.” As [the Ackerman link](http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004064.php) stated, the relevant audience appears to be the Joint Chiefs. I think the rumor is confirmed --Cheney said “Jump” and AEI wagged its collective tail-- but the scope of this rollout is still unclear. [/QUOTE] Confirmation bias. AEI and other thinktanks routinely hosts events relating to Iran, including AEI’s “Divesting from Iran: A Briefing from State and Federal Legislators” on July 26, Heritage’s “Iran’s Rising Challenge: Nuclear and Energy Security Dimensions” on July 25, and Brookings’ “Internal Politics and Unrest in Iran” on July 11. One upcoming conference on a book hardly constitutes a press offensive. Oh, and I don’t read the paper version of Newsweek, but going to Newsweek’s website, the only story on Iran in their “World News” section is dated July 23. I’m afraid I’m just not aware of which article you’re referring to. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520/132 "2007-09-05T14:35:09Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] **John** , I’m failing to see your point. If someone harbored those responsible for 9/11, in my view that is covered by my statement that the targets must be “connected” to the attacks. The phrase about preventing further attacks doesn’t expand the circle of those covered by the AUMF, it arguably restricts it further. [/quote] Because it says: “or harbored such organizations”. “Such” meaning “of similar kind”, but not necessarily the same ones. At least that’s how I read it. Otherwise it would have said “those organizations”, as it did earlier in the sentence. > [@](#): > > And finally, to nobody in particular, even though I identify as a liberal, I’m kind of amazed by how folks who I’m nominally supposed to be aligned with call for impeachment at the drop of a hat, but when I say that starting an unauthorized war would be the end of the Bush presidency, I only get one pretty anti-Bush Republican to agree. I’m kind of at a loss for words when liberals brush off a fucking war with fucking Iran at this fucked up time as not being sufficient for impeachment and conviction. Who is the anti-Bush Republican? I hope you weren’t talking about me, although I am generally anti-Bush (more specifically anti-Iraq war and anti-bombing Iran). ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520/133 "2007-09-05T15:02:06Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Because it says: “or harbored such organizations”. “Such” meaning “of similar kind”, but not necessarily the same ones. At least that’s how I read it. Otherwise it would have said “those organizations”, as it did earlier in the sentence. [/quote] I don’t agree. I think “such” is used to refer to the specific definition provided. It wouldn’t make much sense to define the targeted group (ie, that had a hand in 9-11) and then in the following two clauses throw the door wide open based solely on an equivocation of the word “such.” If you look at the preamble, the word “such” is used there, too, and I think the line about “such acts render it necessary” for the US to defend itself is clearly a reference to the specific acts on 9-11, and would not be an implied reference to, say, the Oklahoma City bombing, similar as it may be in a certain sense. Therefore, I think the word “such” is used in a consistent manner throughout the resolution, as a reference to incidents or groups previously defined, as opposed to meaning “or any similar thing.” > [@](#): > > Who is the anti-Bush Republican? Whoops! I know this has come up once before when I accused you of being a Republican. I recall that you corrected me and I said I wouldn’t make that mistake again. It appears that I have. I didn’t mean to inaccurately label you… again. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520/134 "2007-09-05T15:18:05Z")
So…not much of a roll out thus far. How long till the thing starts picking up enough steam to actually, you know, get on the radar of the non-faithful? I watched CNN and Fox (yurk) last night just to see…and I don’t think there was a story on either concerning Iran (though there was something on that lame ass Fox ticker tape thingy at the bottom about Iran…didn’t seem anything to get excited about though). ed. And from the horses ass…nothing on [Fox’s](http://www.foxnews.com/) front page concerning Iran at all. Curious… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520/135 "2007-09-05T15:41:27Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] “I’m sure she’ll bomb all sorts of random third world countries, just like her husband.” Unless it was intended ironically? [/QUOTE] Just for kicks: Somalia - not started by him. Serbia - Third World? And we were too late by several years on that. Iraq? hmmmmm. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520/136 "2007-09-05T15:45:24Z")
Don’t forget Sudan and Afghanistan in attempts to get Osama bin Laden. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520/137 "2007-09-05T15:55:57Z")
After watching the news this weekend, maybe we better prepare some strikes into Germany as well… -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520/138 "2007-09-05T17:39:12Z")
Might take a bit of preparation. A good start would be to repeatedly insist that Germany is actively providing weapons and/or training that results in the death and injury of our troops. Actual evidence might be required in the instance of Germany, whereas in the case of Iran it doesn’t seem to be needful. Its one of those “everybody knows” kinda thngs. It would be helpful if Germany’s leader were more openly hostile. Maybe we can spin her reaction to GeeDub’s neck rub effort as an attempt to break his wrists with some secret Nazi _kung fu_? And, of course, laying the groundwork, a few sabre-rattling speeches, a bit of manly chest-thumping in front of veteran’s group about how we won’t tolerate Germany’s meddling in Europe, where they have no business. That sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520/139 "2007-09-05T18:46:53Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] So…not much of a roll out thus far. How long till the thing starts picking up enough steam to actually, you know, get on the radar of the non-faithful? I watched CNN and Fox (yurk) last night just to see…and I don’t think there was a story on either concerning Iran (though there was something on that lame ass Fox ticker tape thingy at the bottom about Iran…didn’t seem anything to get excited about though). ed. And from the horses ass…nothing on [Fox’s](http://www.foxnews.com/) front page concerning Iran at all. Curious… -XT [/QUOTE] You’re confusing “willful blindness on your part” with “lack of coverage”. The Detroit Free Press has [this screed](http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070905/OPINION02/709050335/1070) from Mike Rogers (R-MI): > [@](#): > > Like me, many Americans are spending this week buying the last-minute pencils, backpacks and school clothes our kids need as they head back to their classrooms. > > As we are busy with this important task, I hope we don’t forget about a threat that is looming 3,000 miles away. One year ago this month, the House Intelligence Policy Subcommittee, which I chaired, issued a report warning that “despite its claims to the contrary, Iran is seeking nuclear weapons.”… Fox News has [IAEA: Hoodwinked by the Ayatollahs](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,295721,00.html) The AFP (and the numerous other outlets that have picked up on this one) clearly feels today is a very important day to call attention to [the execution of 21 drug smugglers by hanging](http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5h9M20MlHeaBpT35FanrsHJHAeTgA) in that country William Kristol is writing in the Weekly Standard, [Terrorist Training Camps in Iran: Should They Be Safe Havens?](http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/061vrvwi.asp) Condoleeza Rice [minced word with the Australian press](http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/US-urges-tough-stance-against-Iran/2007/09/05/1188783324312.html) today: > [@](#): > > “The president has made very clear that while he takes no options off the table - and you would not want an American president to take options off the table - while he doesn’t take options off the table, he believes the diplomatic work is the best course and can be successful,” Dr Rice told ABC Television. The military is proudly [announcing the capture](http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/09/05/iraq.iran/) in Iraq of a highly sought agent who they emphasize has ties to Iran’s Quds Force, even though > [@](#): > > …the coalition is still assessing the individual’s connection with the Quds force… ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520/140 "2007-09-05T18:59:06Z")
Mein Gott! Iran is in the news! It must mean war!! Seriously, this is nothing but confirmation bias. Don’t pretend that Iran wasn’t in the news before Labor Day. The fact that Iran continues to be in the news, really isn’t news. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-admin-planning-post-labor-day-product-rollout-of-war-with-iran-hysteria/417520.md?page=8)