# Bush Administration Conspires With Companies Screw their Employees **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2004, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099 "2004-01-06T22:56:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2004, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099/1 "2004-01-06T22:56:04Z")
[George Bush: Have You No Shame, Sir?](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=542&e=1&u=/ap/overtime_glance) > [@](#): > > \*\*The Labor Department is suggesting ways employers can avoid paying overtime to newly eligible workers in its proposal. It offered this example of a “payroll adjustment”: > > A worker earning $400 per week for 40 hours becomes eligible for overtime pay, which would average five hours a week. > > The employer can convert the worker to an hourly pay rate. But instead of paying him $10 an hour plus overtime, the employer can cut the worker’s pay to $8.42 an hour, or $336.80, for a 40-hour week.\*\* The utter disregard for the worker displayed by this president grows more vile by the day. He is determined to maintain the fig leaf of economic growth, even if it has to be done on the backs of employees who are terrified into submission by a stagnant job market. Perhaps he forgets that angry employees make angry voters. ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2004, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099/2 "2004-01-06T23:29:58Z")
So what? The evil Bush Administration labor department is the same group that gave the extra money to the employees in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099/3 "2004-01-06T23:34:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fear Itself \* > \*\* > > Perhaps he forgets that angry employees make angry voters. \*\* HA-HA-HA! WHAT A JOKE! The American worker doesn’t _read_, he doesn’t _think_, and he doesn’t _vote_. He just _sits there_, like a dumb brute beast, and takes it. I hate it, but George W. hasn’t a thing to worry about from the working man, as long as beer prices are low. You’re so naive, **Fear Itself**. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099/4 "2004-01-07T00:18:07Z")
Don’t be so sure, buckaroo. A lot of folks are mired in apathy, that’s true, and find it difficult to connect to the images that flash across thier TV screen. But damn near everybody reading this, at one point or another, has been Screwed by the Boss. And resented it. And by and large, the common wisdom (such as it were) is that the Boss is a Republican. This is an astonishing example of hubris, in my estimation. They are really asking for trouble with this kind of action, which amounts to dancing on the grave of Labor. Any working person who ends up working 10 hours a week more for nothing but the selfless joy of buying the Boss a new Lexus…is gonna be pissed. Those of you who are of an age to have grandparents who participated in the Labor movement should get yourselves a bit of oral education. Or read Studs Terkel. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099/5 "2004-01-07T00:31:01Z")
People fought and died for the reforms that this rump administration rolls back with sardonic glee. We need to lay that stupid fuck of a President off. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099/6 "2004-01-07T00:37:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SmackFu \* > \*\*So what? The evil Bush Administration labor department is the same group that gave the extra money to the employees in the first place. \*\* What “extra money” are you talking about, **SmackFu**? Under this plan, that worker would take home $63.20 _less_ each week, and would have to work 5 hours of overtime just to stay even! How is this a gift from the labor department? Is that more “Republican Math”, the same skill with numbers that conjured up the Florida votes in 2000? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099/7 "2004-01-07T00:56:59Z")
What this **is** , my friends, is just business as usual for most federal rulings. They issue a ruling. They provide examples. This is just a particularly embarassing one. And my colleagues covering The Hill got a hold of it and are milking it. And, for my money, that’s fine. Providing examples of what the new overtime rules might actually lead to should be educational. But there’s nothing ‘hubris-like’ about this. It’s perfectly normal. Bad…but normal. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099/8 "2004-01-07T01:02:45Z")
It looks like **Fear Itself** does not actually comprehend what is going on. Let me try to explain a bit. (Though perish the thought that I muddle up his rant with mere facts!) Fact: Under GW’s administration, _more_ people are eligible for overtime pay than were eligible for overtime pay before. Does that make sense? _More_ people will be eligible for overtime, meaning that if they work over 40 hours per week, they will earn at overtime rates, which means _more_ money in those peoples pockets. The above is a _fact_, as in, ‘Not idle speculation’, or, ‘The opposite of wild-eyed conjecture’. If you have a specific example of a company changing its payroll around to minimize its payroll expenses, let us see it. If you have an example of GW mugging people at the ATM, again, let us know. But until then, you will excuse me if I disregard your OP as being devoid of anything worth being concerned about. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099/9 "2004-01-07T01:15:02Z")
No, I think you missed the topic, Brutus. At issue here is not the overtime rules themselves but the illustrations provided by the administration for ways by which employers **can** minimize payroll. The political fallout (and whether it has legs) is far more important than the ruling itself. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099/10 "2004-01-07T01:19:39Z")
It is optimistic to claim that there was a topic here, other than typical Bush-bashing. Various methods for dealing with payroll expenses have been around since 1938 or so. (Whenever it was that overtime was placed on the books.) Unless you think that certain aspects of certain laws should remain secret, there is no valid debate in this OP, only ranting. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099/11 "2004-01-07T01:41:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\* > > Fact: Under GW’s administration, _more_ people are eligible for overtime pay than were eligible for overtime pay before. > > Does that make sense? _More_ people will be eligible for overtime, meaning that if they work over 40 hours per week, they will earn at overtime rates, which means _more_ money in those peoples pockets. > > The above is a _fact_, as in, ‘Not idle speculation’, or, ‘The opposite of wild-eyed conjecture’. > > \*\* Of course you have a cite for this _fact?_ ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099/12 "2004-01-07T02:46:00Z")
> [@](#): > > HA-HA-HA! WHAT A JOKE! > > The American worker doesn’t read, he doesn’t think, and he doesn’t vote. He just sits there, like a dumb brute beast, and takes it. > > I hate it, but George W. hasn’t a thing to worry about from the working man, as long as beer prices are low. > > You’re so naive, Fear Itself. Thus speaks a voice from the party that styles itself the champion of the working man. ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099/13 "2004-01-07T03:00:35Z")
Here’s a [more comprehensive story from the AP](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040106/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/overtime_pay_5). IMHO, the labor department is just being practical. Just because the law now requires paying OT doesn’t mean a company wants to or is able to actually pay their employers more. So of course they’ll fire people or cut their wages to make it work out the same. The fact that the labor department tells them **how** to calculate the required hourly wage cut is irrelevant to whether the companies will actually do it. Obviously the labor department itself has no position on how well employees are paid, if it’s above the minimum. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099/14 "2004-01-07T07:48:05Z")
Am I the only one expecting that next month, the Labor Department will simply tell employers “Just tell the damn employees to work overtime without pay, and threaten to sue them for everything they’ve got if they complain”? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099/15 "2004-01-07T07:52:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CBEscapee \* > \*\*Of course you have a cite for this _fact?_ \*\* Yes. The OP. “Newly eligible” refers to the fact that the rules are being changed by the admin to make more people eligible for OT. That they are doing this with one hand while simultaneously telling employers about loopholes is rather stupid, and horrible politics to boot; but unless 100% of all employers use the loopholes, the fact remains that more people will get overtime. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099/16 "2004-01-07T07:55:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*Am I the only one expecting that next month, the Labor Department will simply tell employers “Just tell the damn employees to work overtime without pay, and threaten to sue them for everything they’ve got if they complain”? \*\* No, you’re not. There seems to be no lack of Bush-hating, mindlessly paranoid partisan hacks to keep you company here. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099/17 "2004-01-07T08:11:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Am I the only one expecting that next month, the Labor Department will simply tell employers “Just tell the damn employees to work overtime without pay, and threaten to sue them for everything they’ve got if they complain”? I would hope so, considering how silly a leap of logic that is. Unfortunately, my hope is usually dashed in such cases as these… I would imagine, my dear friends in the Chicken Little party, that any company that wanted to do what the OP is foaming about would have to have a clause in any employee contract that lets them do it. Which would be… y’know… absolutely the same as things are now. Don’t want your company to stay solvent? Don’t sign the contract. You can make a liveable wage at McDonald’s. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099/18 "2004-01-07T11:46:11Z")
**furt:** _“Newly eligible” refers to the fact that the rules are being changed by the admin to make more people eligible for OT._ Actually, this omits more than half of the story. There will indeed be some lower-income workers who become newly eligible for OT, but at least as many—in fact, probably far more—currently OT-eligible workers will become ineligible. According to a [news article](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040106/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/overtime_pay_7) linked from the OP’s link, > [@](#): > > New overtime regulations were proposed in March after employers complained they were being saddled with costly lawsuits filed by workers who claimed they were unfairly being denied overtime. But the regulations themselves have stirred controversy over how many workers would be stripped of their right to overtime pay. […] > > A final rule, revising the 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act, is expected to be issued in March. The act defines the types of jobs that qualify workers for time-and-a-half if they work more than 40 hours a week. > > Overtime pay for the 1.3 million low-income workers has been a selling tool for the Bush administration in trying to ease concerns in Congress about millions of higher-paid workers becoming ineligible. More specifics are supplied by the [Economic Policy Institute](http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/briefingpapers_flsa_jun03): > [@](#): > > The DOL’s proposed regulations would raise the salary level under which all employees are protected to $425 per week (i.e., any employee making under $425 would be eligible for overtime benefits) […] and would raise the number of workers entitled to overtime pay by roughly 1.3 million. […] > > Unfortunately, the proposal removes as many employees from overtime coverage from the upper end of the pay scale as it adds at the bottom. The DOL proposes a new exemption that will […] exempt an estimated 1.3 million employees who currently are entitled to overtime pay. > > The many other rules changes the DOL proposes would remove millions of workers from overtime coverage […] For example, changes to the three duties tests would dramatically increase the number of workers who would be classified as “professional,” “administrative,” or “executive.” […] [H]undreds of thousands of editors, reporters, health technicians, […] paralegals, emergency medical technicians, licensed practical nurses, draftsmen, surveyors, and many others [will become ineligible for overtime]. […] Employees who can only recommend—but not carry out—the hiring or firing of the two employees they “supervise” will be exempted as “executives.” […] We estimate that—just in the 78 occupational groups we studied (out of 257 “white-collar” occupations)—2.5 million salaried employees and 5.5 million hourly workers will lose their right to overtime pay if the proposed rules are adopted. So I think it’s quite fair to suggest that the main goal of the Bush Labor Dept. here seems to be reducing the overtime-pay burden on employers. The helpful hints about how to avoid paying OT even to the smaller group that will be eligible for it under the new rules are merely adding insult to injury, as far as benefits to workers are concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099/19 "2004-01-07T12:33:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*Thus speaks a voice from the party that styles itself the champion of the working man. \*\* Hey smartmouth! Which party am I a member of? Answer–NO PARTY! I’m an independent. :mad: Get you facts straight next time—_before_ you grunt incoherently, m’kaaaay? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099/20 "2004-01-07T15:07:16Z")
Thank goodness the Administration informed corporate america about this loophole. Otherwise, companies would never have figured out that they could lower labor cost by reducing hourly wages! I mean, who woulda figured? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-administration-conspires-with-companies-screw-their-employees/223099.md?page=2)