# Bush ain't so dumb after all. Kerry however...
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [November 1, 2004, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316 "2004-11-01T14:01:15Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2004, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316/1 "2004-11-01T14:01:15Z")
Watching NBC news last night, I was floored when Brokaw asked Kerry if he thought he had underestimated Bush given that comparison of Military Aptitude tests revealed that Bush had a higher IQ. I looked for a cite and found this:
[http://www.vdare.com/sailer/kerry\_iq\_lower.htm](http://www.vdare.com/sailer/kerry_iq_lower.htm)
The source is clearly biased, but the analysis seems to have been done in the spirit of fairness. Is this surprising to anyone else?
I put this in GD because it will no doubt turn into one.
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### Author:  [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2004, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316/2 "2004-11-01T14:07:52Z")
That source is not only biased, but displays idiocy right from the start:
> [@](#):
>
> Liberals tend to believe two things about IQ: First, that IQ is a meaningless, utterly discredited concept. Second, that liberals are better than conservatives because they have much higher IQs.
Hummmmmmm…anybody spot a contradiction anywhere?
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### Author:  [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2004, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316/3 "2004-11-01T14:11:49Z")
The (in-)validity of IQ has nothing to do with politics. IQ tests are highly suspect, but in this case, the fellow guesses at IQ’s as if they are tacit features, like blood types, that can be reliably ascertained by testing. This is something like guessing at someone’s golf handicap if they’ve never golfed. IQ is a score on a test, nothing more, and if they haven’t taken the test, they don’t have a score.
This is pseudoscience, and should not be treated as news. However, since newspapers also run articles about ghosts and psychics and most run an astrology column, I guess it’s par for the course.
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### Author:  [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2004, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316/4 "2004-11-01T14:12:59Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#):
>
> That source is not only biased, but displays idiocy right from the start:
>
> Hummmmmmm…anybody spot a contradiction anywhere?
But… he provides links! It’s true that one link is to another (rather racist) blog entry of his own and the other doesn’t work, but still: there are links!
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### Author:  [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2004, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316/5 "2004-11-01T14:58:48Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#):
>
> Hummmmmmm…anybody spot a contradiction anywhere?
Uhhh. not that I endorse the link in the OP, but that’s sarcasm, chief. Take a deep breath.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2004, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316/6 "2004-11-01T15:01:32Z")
I don’t understand how the thread title relates to the issue. If anybody’s dumb here, it’s Brokaw. That’s just a painfully stupid question. Even if the analysis was accurate, why the hell would you ask someone a question like that?
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### Author:  [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316/7 "2004-11-01T15:04:38Z")
> [@furt](#):
>
> Uhhh. not that I endorse the link in the OP, but that’s sarcasm, chief. Take a deep breath.
LOL, so it is - I should pay more attention when reading shoddy web pages :wally
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### Author:  [@braintree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/braintree)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316/8 "2004-11-01T15:05:35Z")
I think we need to distinguish between high IQ and mental habits. For middle-aged baseball fans you can say it’s sort of like the difference between Pete Rose and Joe Pepitone. Joe Pepitone was an extremely gifted ballplayer but, for reasons I can only guess at, prefered sleeping with loose women to. say, fielding practice. Pete Rose is said to have had mediocre talents but hustled every second he was on the field. Rose, if it hadn’t been for his little gambling addiction, would be in the hall of fame. Pepitone wound up as a tragic/comedic figure who never lived up to his potential.
So, sure. Bush could have been born smarter than John Kerry but we’re talking about a very slight difference in natural gifts versus a huge difference in application.
Also, Bush was a pretty bad drunk for a very long time. That sort of thing doesn’t help. They could be even now.
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### Author:  [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316/9 "2004-11-01T15:07:15Z")
How did Kerry field this question? Is there a transcript or link to the interview available?
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### Author:  [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316/10 "2004-11-01T15:09:36Z")
Well, this may brand me as a liberal but IQ’s \*really don’t \* mean a lot. One can have an extremely high IQ and absolutely no common sense or social skills. One can have a high IQ but never apply it by learning anything new or broadening their mind.
A child could be tested and determined to have a genius IQ then spend their life coasting through school, partying/doing drugs and alcohol and then doing whatever their advisors tell them to do without ever having to think for themselves. They will never have applied their IQ to actual learning and productive thought and would not have lived up to their genius potential.
A high IQ does not make one a genius.
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### Author:  [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2004, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316/11 "2004-11-01T15:16:24Z")
> [@Terrifel](#):
>
> How did Kerry field this question? Is there a transcript or link to the interview available?
> [@](#):
>
> Brokaw: Someone has analyzed the President’s military aptitude tests and yours, and concluded that he has a higher IQ than you do.
>
> Kerry: That’s great. More power. I don’t know how they’ve done it, because my record is not public. So I don’t know where you’re getting that from.
>
> Brokaw: Do you think he’s a smart man?
>
> Kerry: I do. Yes, I do think he’s a smart man.
>
> Brokaw: Do you think too many people in your party underestimate?
>
> Kerry: I think people have always underestimated President Bush. But I’m proud that in those debates, I didn’t underestimate him.
The rest can be found at:
[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6354942/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6354942/)
Did the rest of you read the analysis? It seemed pretty fair-minded to me. A biased source doesn’t mean its a wrong source. Its pretty clear that Kerry’s side wouldn’t care to reveal this.
I’m also not saying that IQ means anything (though it certainly does), but this thread is referring to statements like:
> [@](#):
>
> “Does anyone in America doubt that Kerry has a higher IQ than Bush? I’m sure the candidates’ SATs and college transcripts would put Kerry far ahead.”
Howell Raines
- Former Executive Editor of the New York Times
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### Author:  [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316/12 "2004-11-01T15:17:51Z")
Also, I didn’t mean for the thread to be about the predictive power of IQ.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2004, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316/13 "2004-11-01T15:23:28Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#):
>
> Its pretty clear that Kerry’s side wouldn’t care to reveal this.
Has Bush’s IQ score been made public? His SAT scores have, I think - I thought they were on Snopes but I could find them - but I don’t think any candidate would want to reveal an IQ score. There’s no benefit to it.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316/14 "2004-11-01T15:42:08Z")
Bush is intelligent? I knew there was going to be an October surprise.
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### Author:  [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2004, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316/15 "2004-11-01T15:45:00Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#):
>
> Bush is intelligent? I knew there was going to be an October surprise.
😛
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2004, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316/16 "2004-11-01T15:50:16Z")
If you read the linked article you’ll find a surprising absense of real comparisons. There’s nothing like “Bush and Kerry both took this intelligence test and here’s what each one scored.” It’s more like Kerry took this test once which is the equivalent of taking this test and people who took that test and got similar scores often have IQ’s in this range. Meanwhile Bush took this test and if you adjust the score to reflect the change in final scores over the years you’ll see he was in this percentile and people who scored in the same percentile in an IQ test had this score. The man is comparing apples to bananas and oranges to grapefruits and then noting that bananas are yellower than grapefruit.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2004, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316/17 "2004-11-01T15:54:40Z")
A military aptitude test is not an IQ test. My own IQ test results have consistently been well into the “genius” range" but I did only so-so on my ASVAB. There is no objective or nmpirical method by which anyone can extropolate an IQ from a military aptitude test. This is like someone deciding that one candidate is “smarter” by examining their handwriting.
Also, what did they compare Bush’s test to if Kerry’s is not publicly available?
Frankly, I think the debates made it painfully clear who the idiot was.
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### Author:  [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2004, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316/18 "2004-11-01T16:05:11Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> A military aptitude test is not an IQ test. My own IQ test results have consistently been well into the “genius” range" but I did only so-so on my ASVAB. There is no objective or nmpirical method by which anyone can extropolate an IQ from a military aptitude test. This is like someone deciding that one candidate is “smarter” by examining their handwriting.
>
> Also, what did they compare Bush’s test to if Kerry’s is not publicly available?
>
> Frankly, I think the debates made it painfully clear who the idiot was.
I guess you didn’t read it either:
[http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Training\_School\_Record.pdf](http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Training_School_Record.pdf)
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### Author:  [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2004, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316/19 "2004-11-01T16:09:38Z")
It doesn’t matter what GW’s test score was he doesn’t know how to plan. Maybe because he never had to do it.
His college classmates say he was the most uncurious (is that a word?) individual they ever saw. He never dug very deeply into anything. He has never traveled until he became president. He doesn’t read newspapers by his own statement.
This seems to show that he never had a list of things that must be done in a sucessful Iraq operation and never asked his staff who was in charge of covering “what” and what was the status of “what” and whether the tasks were in the correct sequence and on time. It also shows in the amost complete lack of followup to the Afghan operation.
Commentators keep saying the Kerry’s problem is that his answers are too thoughtful and detailed and that Bush is popular because he’s a likeable good 'ol boy. Who in the world would ever want a thoughtful president when you can have a glad-handing, immature dilletante? Make me want to throw up.
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### Author:  [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)
#### Post date: [November 1, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-aint-so-dumb-after-all-kerry-however/272316/20 "2004-11-01T16:18:20Z")
Here’s the Bush - Kerry IQ article in _The New York Times_ -
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*To Bush-bashers, it may be the most infuriating revelation yet from the military records of the two presidential candidates: the young George W. Bush probably had a higher I.Q. than did the young John Kerry.
>
> That, at least, is the conclusion of Steve Sailer, a conservative columnist at the Web magazine [Vdare.com](http://Vdare.com) and a veteran student of presidential I.Q.'s. During the last presidential campaign Mr. Sailer estimated from Mr. Bush’s SAT score (1206) that his I.Q. was in the mid-120’s, about 10 points lower than Al Gore’s.
>
> Mr. Kerry’s SAT score is not known, but now Mr. Sailer has done a comparison of the intelligence tests in the candidates’ military records. They are not formal I.Q. tests, but Mr. Sailer says they are similar enough to make reasonable extrapolations.
>
> Mr. Bush’s score on the Air Force Officer Qualifying Test at age 22 again suggests that his I.Q was the mid-120’s, putting Mr. Bush in about the 95th percentile of the population, according to Mr. Sailer. Mr. Kerry’s I.Q. was about 120, in the 91st percentile, according to Mr. Sailer’s extrapolation of his score at age 22 on the Navy Officer Qualification Test.
>
> Linda Gottfredson, an I.Q. expert at the University of Delaware, called it a creditable analysis said she was not surprised at the results or that so many people had assumed that Mr. Kerry was smarter. “People will often be misled into thinking someone is brighter if he says something complicated they can’t understand,” Professor Gottfredson said….\*\*
> **[Secret Weapon for Bush? (Published 2004)](https://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/24/politics/campaign/secret-weapon-for-bush.html)**
>
> Secret Weapon For Bush? To Bush-bashers, it may be the most infuriating revelation yet from the military records of the two presidential candidates: the young George W. Bush probably had a higher I.Q. than did the young John Kerry. That, at...
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