# Bush and Biblical explanation for the Grand Canyon **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 20, 2004, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231 "2004-10-20T15:50:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231/1 "2004-10-20T15:50:05Z")
PARK SERVICE STICKS WITH BIBLICAL EXPLANATION FOR GRAND CANYON [Latest Bush: Biblical explanation for the Grand Canyon book](http://www.peer.org/press/524.html) > [@](#): > > The Bush Administration has decided that it will stand by its approval for a book claiming the Grand Canyon was created by Noah’s flood rather than by geologic forces, according to internal documents released today by Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER). Quick Question: Creationism includes this ? I thought it was only God made life… Well it seems that Bush and Co. are really into changing reality to suit them… anyone can confirm this Grand Canyon story ? ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231/2 "2004-10-20T16:10:33Z")
The Noah’s Flood explanation for the Grand Canyon is favored by “young Earth” creationists, who believe the Earth isn’t old enough for geological forces to have formed the Canyon. How it could have been formed by rain is a question only they can answer. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231/3 "2004-10-20T16:20:33Z")
From the excerpt in the OP I inferred this was a book or pamphlet the Park Service was actually publishing. But checking the link, no, it’s just something they’ve decided, despite some public protests, to offer for sale in their Grand Canyon museums and bookstores. I guess that’s not **quite** as bad . . . :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231/4 "2004-10-20T16:26:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > From the excerpt in the OP I inferred this was a book or pamphlet the Park Service was actually publishing. But checking the link, no, it’s just something they’ve decided, despite some public protests, to offer for sale in their Grand Canyon museums and bookstores. I guess that’s not **quite** as bad . . . :rolleyes: Despite the rolleyes smiley at the end of the post above, I think the distinction **BrianGlutton** draws is a very compelling one. The Park Service has no business publishing a work claiming that the Grand Canyon was created by the biblical Flood. But since the Park Service operates venues that sell stories about Paul Bunyon and Babe, the Blue Ox, I fail to see why they should be constrained from selling books that tell the Noah Flood story. Obviously, more detail may change this view – if they are selling this book shelved under the “Geology” section, for example, rather than the “Fiction” section, I’d certainly support requiring them to move it. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231/5 "2004-10-20T16:26:49Z")
> [@Fiver](#): > > The How it could have been formed by rain is a question only they can answer. Then where does traditional science teach that river water comes from? 😃 Get a grip. Allowing a book to be sold isn’t the same as the president or even the park service claiming a 6,000 year old earth. If you want to bash Bush there is much better material to work with. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231/6 "2004-10-20T19:49:17Z")
If you’re a “young Earth” creationist, why do you have to provide any kind of explanation for how the Grand Canyon was “formed”? Maybe God simply made it that way in the first place, for esthetic reasons. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231/7 "2004-10-20T19:56:35Z")
The title of this thread had me picturing God, as drawn by Gary Larson, in some dungarees and a work shirt with a shovel digging the Grand Canyon while the sun beats down on him. FWIW, I’m also okay with this as long as it’s grouped with other fiction or tall tales. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231/8 "2004-10-20T20:21:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Obviously, more detail may change this view – if they are selling this book shelved under the “Geology” section, for example, rather than the “Fiction” section, I’d certainly support requiring them to move it. They were selling it in the Geology section, they have since moved it to the Inspirational section. This seems like a fair compromise to me. I agree that selling religious items in a gov’t owned bookstore doesn’t break the establishment clause(after all, many people go to the Grand Canyon for "spiritual " experiences) but passing religious books off as science does. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If you’re a “young Earth” creationist, why do you have to provide any kind of explanation for how the Grand Canyon was “formed”? Maybe God simply made it that way in the first place, for esthetic reasons. From my poor understanding, part of the point of Creationism is to pass itself off as science. Thus they don’t make any overtly religious claims, they are simply proposing that a “hypothesis” for natural phenomenom like canyons is a great big flood that happened at the time the bible said it did. Thus they hope to sneak around the establishment clause and get into the schools by being taught as an alternative theory. Plus “God made it that way” wouldn’t give you much to write a book about. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231/9 "2004-10-20T23:05:11Z")
The annoying thing about this story, to me, is that the political leaders above the frontline park employees promised to hold a formal review after they got protests, and then quietly roundfiled the whole thing and hoped it would go away. We have **got** to get these fuckers out of office. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231/10 "2004-10-20T23:11:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But since the Park Service operates venues that sell stories about Paul Bunyon and Babe, the Blue Ox, I fail to see why they should be constrained from selling books that tell the Noah Flood story… Except that there is no confusion about Paul Bunyon and Babe being fictional characters… ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231/11 "2004-10-21T01:15:21Z")
Oh man we just gotta get that dipshit “Dubya” out of the Oval Office. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231/12 "2004-10-21T02:36:53Z")
> [@wolf\_meister](#): > > Oh man we just gotta get that dipshit “Dubya” out of the Oval Office. Amen, Brother! Amen! ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231/13 "2004-10-21T02:42:58Z")
The way I understadn it is; the earth has been around loooong time. It got pocked up, etc. God, during creation, cleaned it up and made the grass, etc. So I’m not exactly a YEC, sortof recycled earth. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231/14 "2004-10-21T02:44:04Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Except that there is no confusion about Paul Bunyon and Babe being fictional characters… Perhaps a better analogy would be books sold by the Park Service that relate the Hopi and Navaho explanations for the beginning of the world. Many believe these to be fiction. Some do not. It’s entirely proper for Park Service stores to sell them. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231/15 "2004-10-21T13:46:29Z")
If it is sold under “fiction” where other stories covering the same issue are also availabe for the custumor, I don’t see how it could be subject a subject of protests when the other similar books are accepted. I find this far more disturbing: > [@](#): > > The creationist book is not the only religious controversy at Grand Canyon National Park. One week prior to the approved sale of Grand Canyon: A Different View, NPS Deputy Director Donald Murphy ordered that bronze plaques bearing Psalm verses be returned and reinstalled at canyon overlooks. Superintendent Alston had removed the bronze plaques on legal advice from Interior Department solicitors. Murphy also wrote a letter of apology to the plaques’ sponsors, the Evangelical Sisterhood of Mary. Do they really mean to say here that references to Bible quotes are regarded as deserving a valid place there and as such are supported and tolerated by the government? This implies of course that I must go take a new look as soon as possible to be concinved that my admiration for the beauty of God’s Creation - popularly called Nature - made me miss these plates explaining me that The Bible is behind this. Maybe I can take similar plates with Quranic verses with me and create a Conspiracy of United Religions against Atheists there. (Bush and crew surely would like the idea) Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231/16 "2004-10-21T15:05:30Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > The way I understadn it is; the earth has been around loooong time. > It got pocked up, etc. > God, during creation, cleaned it up and made the grass, etc. > So I’m not exactly a YEC, sortof recycled earth. So you agree that a tale of a global flood being used to explain away all sorts of geological formations is bogus? ---
**Author:** ![Toby-T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@Toby-T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toby-T)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231/17 "2004-10-21T15:34:05Z")
I see this as just another example of our new overly-sensitive attitude in this country. People seem to walk around with a chip the size of Texas on their shoulder just searching for something to be offended about. This is being blown absurdly out of proportion. This isn’t some government-funded spokesperson standing there with a megaphone preaching to children about how the mighty hand of God formed the canyon and any other explanation is balderdash. This is one book on a shelf among many. No one is forced to pick it up. No one is forced to read it. Do we have to hold gift shop accountable for every word in every book they include in their sales rack? Nothing was said or done by anyone in any official capacity to state to the masses “The official position of the United States federal government is that this canyon was formed by the flood in Noah’s time.” Sure some people may disagree with the book, but others disagree with the scientific explanations. Include books from both sides and let the consumer decide what they want to buy, read, and believe. Lighten up America, and get that chip off your shoulder! ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231/18 "2004-10-21T16:12:08Z")
> [@](#): > > these plates explaining me that The Bible is behind this. Well, the Psalms are in the Jewish Torah, too, so it’s not just a “Christian Bible” thing. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231/19 "2004-10-21T17:21:23Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > So you agree that a tale of a global flood being used to explain away all sorts of geological formations is bogus? I believe a global flood happened. I also believe the earth was cleaned in 6 literal days. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231/20 "2004-10-21T17:32:28Z")
Cleaned in six days! Well, maybe he should have spent more time on it–look at all the dirt everywhere. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-and-biblical-explanation-for-the-grand-canyon/270231.md?page=2)