# Bush approval rating continues to fall **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2003, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838 "2003-01-15T22:22:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838/61 "2003-01-17T00:04:11Z")
> [@](#): > > **cainxinth** Fox isn’t exactly known for its even handed coverage on the War on Terror. For some reason, on my computer, Fox loads quicker than just about anything. Maybe it is their servers. Anyway, what **Neurotik** said is right. All I was trying to show is that there are new developments in Iraq which may answer some of the questions we are debating all the time. To wit, is Bush blowing smoke out his ass, or do the Iraqis have a large weapons of mass destruction program, especially nukes? Mainly, what will the defecting scientst have to say? Inquiring minds want to know. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838/62 "2003-01-17T00:32:06Z")
\*Originally posted by cainxinth \* > [@](#): > > Of course you think Shrub is the next FDR, so I guess I should expect just about anything. Would you care to explain this statement, given that 1) I actually agreed that FDR was great, 2) I already said I didn’t think GWB would be? It really is crucial, because it gets to my main problem with your whole line of thinking. As you have acknowledged, you already see him as “dimwitted.” Even granting that this is hyperbole, I suggest that you appear to be starting from a conclusion rather than looking at what he actually does. You may not see it that way, but I’ll leave it to those members of the home audience who are able to see things in terms more nuanced than either BUSH=GOOD or BUSH=BAD to make up their own minds. > [@](#): > > Debated yes, but still quite popular among the masses. Tax cuts, even ones that will mostly benefit the wealthy are extremely popular. War too, for that matter. The comparison between FDR and Bush Jr. is stretched so thin it’s transparent. Ummm, no. You just added to it by pointing out that both of them had domestic agendas with popular items. Understand me. I am not saying that GWB=FDR. I am saying that they faced similar, but not identical, challenges in facing sudden starts to long wars. They underwent similar criticism. The war effort was percieved by many to be failing. And they experienced similar sags in opinion polls. In the previous case, FDR was massively vindicated. Ergo, I argue that we should be somewhat hesitant to ascribe overmuch meaning to “approval ratings.” The horse in in the middle of the stream. > [@](#): > > I’m not going to apologize for coming to that conclusion sooner than you. Ah, but there’s the rub. Actually reading my post carefully would have revealed the words “my guess is.” I have not come to a conclusion. I, for one, leave myself open to new evidence. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838/63 "2003-01-17T00:48:54Z")
As far as any similarities between Japan and Al Quaeda, this would be a stretch. But I would point out that they were both fueled by a religious militarism and profound sense of the divine rightness of their expansion. The Japanese were a nation that wanted to put all of East Asia under their emperor-god. The ObL crowd wants to put all Muslim lands from Indonesia to Morocco under Muslim theocratic rule. Hence, US presence in Saudi pisses them off, much like US presence in the Phillipines or the Brits and Frogs is SE Asia cheesed the Japanese. We were in the land they considered rightly theirs. And while I think they were wrong, I’m with Chaim; the Japanese definitely had a better case. ---
**Author:** ![hazel-rah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hazel-rah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hazel-rah)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838/64 "2003-01-17T01:52:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Sort of refreshing to have a President whose last name can be used in the same sentence as the word “honest” without giggling, isn’t it? It’s easy to be honest when you refuse to answer questions. “President Bush, have you ever used cocaine?” “I’m not going to answer that question.” What refreshing honesty! -fh ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838/65 "2003-01-17T02:19:36Z")
Diogenes the Cynic: > [@](#): > > If his numbers drop below 50, look for a sudden “bombshell” discovery on the weapons inspection front. It looks like you’re off by 3%. It’s down to 53% and they’ve uncovered [empty chemical warheads](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/01/16/sproject.irq.wrap/index.html). ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838/66 "2003-01-17T02:27:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > Sound asleep during history class, were you? No, but see that you were wide awake during smarmy condescension class. Okay, I’ll hedge on “debate.” My point is that the connection did not HAVE to be made. CITE: [" …most American politicians and pundits blamed Germany at least as much as Japan for the assaults on Pearl Harbor, the Philippines, and British Malaya. Because of this popular perception, there was widespread and unprecedented speculation in the American press that President Roosevelt could have gotten at least a majority in Congress to declare war on Germany on December 8, 1941. This was a sudden and radical transformation, since throughout 1941 before Pearl Harbor, Americans opposed to such a declaration fluctuated between approximately 70 and 80 per cent of those polled.](http://www.ohiou.edu/shafr/NEWS/2002/JUN/HITLER.HTM) I submit that “at least a majority” implies that there would have been some discussion. Had he chosen, he could have made an effort to keep out of Europe. FDR knew full well the Germans weren’t behind Pearl, and certainly Hitler’s retraction of his declaration of war on 12/12/41 would have given FDR cover. He chose not to. Then again, perhaps I should stick with “debate.” Will you accept John Keegan as a credible source? CITE: [Assume that Germany had not declared war on the United States immediately after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in December, 1941. Would the United States have declare war on Germany because it was an ally of Japan? The answer may be yes, but the decision would probably have been delayed. A debate would have raged in Congress about the U.S. national interest. The declaration might not have come until the summer of 1942.](http://popups.ctv.ca/content/publish/popups/remembrance_day/content_pages/archives/archives_what_ifs.htm) I don’t disagree with anything you say about the New Deal, oe see how it makes a difference. And while you may disagree, the Texans seem to think GWB did a good job, as they keep voting for him. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838/67 "2003-01-17T02:33:14Z")
> [@](#): > > the Texans seem to think GWB did a good job, as they keep voting for him. I’m having Marion Barry flashbacks. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838/68 "2003-01-17T02:37:56Z")
There was a retraction? How the heck do you “retract” a declaration of war? No kidding, I’ve never heard anything of the like before, and I like being surprised. I ask for a cite on that out of sheer curiosity, not to challenge your veracity. _That_ is damned interesting! ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838/69 "2003-01-17T03:05:42Z")
I never heard of it either, but it’s in the first link, 9th paragraph. > [@](#): > > The events of December 11-13 also require detailed explanation because of their complexity. … In sum then, Hitler’s two-faced rhetorical policy was to issue what sounded very much like a declaration of war against the United States on December 11 – in order to appease his Japanese and domestic allies, while on December 12 denying that declaration in order to appease the United States – which he was not yet ready to fight. This declaration denial or virtual retraction, although reported in the U.S. press at the time, has been lost to history and historians. > … > The December 12 denial/retraction story was distributed by the AP and it ran in a large number of newspapers across the United States. The Chicago Tribune, for example, ran it under the headline, “Hitler speech no war opener, Germans insist.” Relegated to page 7, this story was datelined > > "Berlin, December 12 (Official Radio received by AP) - Spokesman at the Wilhelmstrasse declared today that Adolf Hitler’s speech yesterday was not a declaration of war against the United States. " > > … > > The American reaction to this news item, as well as to the German declaration of war in general, is a story in itself. It reveals that most Americans attached little importance to either of Germany’s statements of December 11 or 12. … as most Americans, attached little importance to Hitler’s declaration, even before his denial/retraction of December 12. If anybody can look up a 12/12 or 13/41 Tribune we can confirm it. Surprised me, too. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![cainxinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@cainxinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cainxinth)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838/70 "2003-01-17T03:18:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by furt \* > \*\*Understand me. I am not saying that GWB=FDR. I am saying that they faced similar, but not identical, challenges in facing sudden starts to long wars. They underwent similar criticism. The war effort was percieved by many to be failing. And they experienced similar sags in opinion polls. In the previous case, FDR was massively vindicated. Ergo, I argue that we should be somewhat hesitant to ascribe overmuch meaning to “approval ratings.” The horse in in the middle of the stream. > > Ah, but there’s the rub. Actually reading my post carefully would have revealed the words “my guess is.” I have not come to a conclusion. I, for one, leave myself open to new evidence. \*\* Point taken, and I apologize for misreading you. I can be a little dense at times. If we both agree that Jr. is not now, nor will he likely ever be a leader in the same vein as FDR then we’re on the same page. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838/71 "2003-01-17T03:24:49Z")
> [@](#): > > _Attrayant_ > It looks like you’re off by 3%. It’s down to 53% and they’ve uncovered empty [chemical warheads.](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/01/16/sproject.irq.wrap/index.html) I hate it when I’m right ☹ It looks like they just found some old expied casings and they’re trying to jump up and down like it proves something. Notice how Fox News keeps punching up the words “chemical warheads” and downplaying the “empty expired” part. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838/72 "2003-01-17T03:25:47Z")
Well, I’ll be dipped in shit! I really got to find out more about this. Bit of a history buff. But that line “lost to history” sets off alarm bells. However, I don’t want to hijack a thread just to satisfy my own craven lusts for historical tidbits. However, if someone else posts links or cites about that, well, there’s really nothing I can do about that, now can I? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838/73 "2003-01-17T03:33:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > I hate it when I’m right ☹ > > It looks like they just found some old expied casings The casings may be expied, but they are _not_ old. That’s an Iraqi lie. It was certainly clever of Bush to get Han Blix and his entire team of inspectors to be part of a secret plot to temporarily boost Bush’s popularity. I’m not sure why Bush wants the boost now, 22 months before the next election. Maybe the explanation might be recieved via the antenna on a tin-foil hat. > [@](#): > > Notice how Fox News keeps punching up the words “chemical warheads” and downplaying the “empty expired” part. :rolleyes: Actually, no. I watched the discussion on FNC Special Report, and they made it clear that the warheads had been emptied. However, there was no question that they are a violation of Iraq’s agreement with the UN. The only question was how serious a violation. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838/74 "2003-01-17T03:36:18Z")
Chillness, **Dio**. All us pessimists hate being right. But the Bushistas aren’t jumping on this one quite to the point of insanity. As Scott Ritter, the Marine Don Rumsfeld _truly_ hates, pointed out the shells aren’t illegal in themselves. Without Nasty Shit, they don’t count. Drearily, though, I’m afraid it doesn’t much matter. When this much build up has been committed, the momentum is almost unstoppable. _Guns of August_. Wish GeeDubya had read that book. Lips got tired, probably. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838/75 "2003-01-17T03:38:58Z")
Good point, **december**. We must be vigilant in making sure the UN doesn’t usurp GeeDubya’s right to determine how to interpret and enforce UN resolutions. Who do they think they are? Us? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838/76 "2003-01-17T04:13:52Z")
C’mon guys. You really think Dubya controls Blix? Please, tell me you’re kidding. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cainxinth \* > \*\*Point taken, and I apologize for misreading you. I can be a little dense at times. If we both agree that Jr. is not now, nor will he likely ever be a leader in the same vein as FDR then we’re on the same page. \*\* I’d go along with that. My own opinion is that all-in-all he’s average-to-mediocre in ability. I think his best trait is that by all accounts he knows what he doesn’t know and gives his expert staff lots of latitude. He’s also possessed of moral certainty, which propels him. I’m no big fan of that quality in itself, but it can work out as a good thing. If we dump Saddam and free NK with minimal loss of life, and lead those countries to a better existance, I think we’ll have to say that his moral certainty did in fact make him a great president (at least in foreign affairs). If a democritized Iraq leads to a wave of change in the Muslim world, well … he’s getting up there on my list. I don’t think this will happen, even if Bush does everything right. At the same time, he could do everything right and if it leads to a new vietnam, or worse, then he’s a failure. In other words, they don’t give trophies to the guys with talent. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838/77 "2003-01-17T04:16:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by furt \* > C’mon guys. You really think Dubya controls Blix? Please, tell me you’re kidding. I’m kidding. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838/78 "2003-01-17T04:28:36Z")
“You’re kidding” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838/79 "2003-01-17T04:44:25Z")
**december** , it’s not illegal to manufacture empty warheads, it’s illegal to fill them up. My guess about the timing is that the Bushies always knew where there were some rusty old antique casings and were just waiting for the right moment to be shocked by their discovery. I haven’t seen Faux News since this morning so they may have downplayed some of their hysteria by now. What I saw when the story first broke had a definite “aha!” quality to it. [quote] _'lucy_ Drearily, though, I’m afraid it doesn’t much matter. When this much build up has been committed, the momentum is almost unstoppable. Guns of August. Wish GeeDubya had read that book. Lips got tired, probably.\* I fear your right. Mister Cheney said that as soon as we can find us some weapons a master struction we can launch us some militionary strikes against that Saddam. Mr, Cheney is mean, though, he won’t let Junior drive one a them really cool hairier jets that can fly straight up like a whirley copter. He also makes Junior read those really hard speeches off the telly prompter machine and those speeches have long words like “proliferization,” and “weapons a master struction.” Mr. Cheney won’t even let Junior shoot off any a those really cool nuke-ya-lar missles at the Ay-rabs-- even after Junior was real nice to those oil friends of daddy’s. President’s don’t get to do _nothin’_ fun. Next time Junior’s gonna be the _vice president_, then _he_ can be in charge for a while. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838/80 "2003-01-17T05:04:56Z")
Niggle, niggle, niggle. Can’t help it. The Iraqis did not manufacture the shells in question. They bought them. They are, apparently, still in the original boxes from Death 'R Us. Nothing illegal about the shells. (Though I would still kind of like to know who they bought them _from_. But that would embarass _somebody_. Not that I’m insinuating anything. You can’t _prove_ I’m insinuating anything) The shells, they be kosher. Only if the shells are filled with Nasty do they rise to any kind of level. As they are, just so much scrap metal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-approval-rating-continues-to-fall/148838.md?page=5)