# Bush as a leader? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2004, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-as-a-leader/234223 "2004-03-14T11:53:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-as-a-leader/234223/21 "2004-03-15T08:04:45Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > I don’t understand. Is that supposed to be a joke? [http://www.rense.com/](http://www.rense.com/) has articles like “Americans Are Rothschild Proxies in Iraq” and editorials with references to hate sites. I don’t know. I only looked at the page content for the link I provided. But going back to look at the main page, I can see that most of the “hate” seems directed towards Bush. Is that the problem? As with anything on the net, you may agree with what is on a site and you may not. There are some viewpoints that I don’t agree with here either. I don’t get upset, I just ignore them and move on \… ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-as-a-leader/234223/22 "2004-03-15T16:34:21Z")
**iamme99** : I looked at your link, and I have to say the author sounds rather shrill. Not only that, but he seems to be using “20/20 hindsight”. Of course we can see events bettrer after they happened! He makes much of the **FACT** ( :rolleyes: ) that there were interception procedures in-place prior to 9/11. This is true. But I have never heard of interceptions taking place, other than for training purposes, except under certain circumstances. We have the ADIZ (Air Defence Identification Zone) where aircraft may be intercepted if they enter it without a flight plan and prior notification. We also have Restricted Areas, Military Operations Areas (MAs), Warning Areas, and a whole bunch of other regulated airspace. Unless someone is flying in an ADIZ or a Restricted Area, I doubt that anyone would have been scrambled prior to 9/11. In fact, even violating a restricted area might not have resulted in scrambling jets. It’s easier and cheaper to just watch where the violator is going and catch him on the ground. He also says: > [@](#): > > It is a FACT that most of these installations have, at the ready, fighter jets such as F-16s to be scrambled on a MOMENT’s NOTICE, for intercepting troubled or problem aircraft. Define “a moment’s notice”. Assuming the pilots are in a ready room, they would sprint to their aircraft. The aircraft have to be started. I’d assume the computers have to initialize. They’d have to get vectors to their targets (and possibly punch coordinates into their nav equipment) and taxi to the runway and take off. Granted, this can all happen pretty quickly; but it’s not as if there are pilots sitting in their cockpits with the engines running. And, again, who was prepared at the time to issue an order to shoot down a civilian airliner? There were lots of jets in the air that day. What if they shot down the wrong one? What if they shot down one or both of the jets that hit NYC when the aircraft were over Manhattan? Sure, the WTC could hve been saved; but at what cost on the ground? But as I said, the author is stating his opinions with information that was not available at the time; i.e., that there would be an attack on 9/11/2001. It’s easy to criticize when you have information that was not available at the time. I’m no fan of Duhbya, and there’s a lot for which he deserves blame; but I don’t think we can blame him for not intercepting the jets on 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-as-a-leader/234223/23 "2004-03-15T16:39:21Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Bush is certainly pro-religious but saying that he seeks to lead us into a talibanesque brand of fundamentalism is pretty ridiculous. Perhaps. But Bush’s ferver for mixing government and religion (via faith-based initiatives) and for public funding of religious schools (via vouchers) is very troubling and patently unconstitutional. And the fact that Bush _cares not one whit_ about this patent unconstitutionality is very troubling and causes people to worry tremendously about the slippery slope that he has put us on. Because history has shown over and over again that these type of things – even though they are but small steps – _can_ lead to fundamentalist regimes. Bush _has_ managed to cause all of our nation’s Founding Fathers to spin in their graves – I guess that’s a leadership of sorts … ---
**Author:** ![Kiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Kiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiger)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-as-a-leader/234223/24 "2004-03-15T18:50:15Z")
> [@iamme99](#): > > Bush’s job, like any CEO, is to take what he received from his predecessor and work tofix the negatives while enhancing the positives. Well hell, there’s your problem. Bush runs the country like the CEO of a big corporation. When was the last time you heard of a CEO doing anything to benefit anyone but himself and his cronies? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-as-a-leader/234223/25 "2004-03-15T19:00:05Z")
> [@iamme99](#): > > How long will Republicans go on blaming Clinton for everything bad that has happened in this world? Until another Democratic candidate wins the White House, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-as-a-leader/234223/26 "2004-03-15T19:25:54Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > I’m no fan of Duhbya, and there’s a lot for which he deserves blame; but I don’t think we can blame him for not intercepting the jets on 9/11. Yeah…That’s about where I am on this. (Frankly, I didn’t even bother to read the link because I doubted it was worth my time.) Hell, there are enough **real** things to blame Bush for without having to make arguments like this! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-as-a-leader/234223/27 "2004-03-15T19:36:41Z")
Generally, I don’t correct my typos; but just to be clear, Military Operations Areas are MOAs, and not MAs. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-as-a-leader/234223/28 "2004-03-16T00:45:37Z")
> [@iamme99](#): > > I don’t know. I only looked at the page content for the link I provided. But going back to look at the main page, I can see that most of the “hate” seems directed towards Bush. Is that the problem? As with anything on the net, you may agree with what is on a site and you may not. Are you dense? Regardless of what they may say about Bush, including “articles” about the Jewish conspiracy’s control of the media completely erases a site’s credibility. > [@](#): > > There are some viewpoints that I don’t agree with here either. I don’t get upset, I just ignore them and move on \… This is a message board. People post their opinions here and others critique them. If they’re inflammatory, the moderators close threads and ban users. [Rense.com](http://Rense.com) is a web site. It has an editor (presumably) and a specific goal. They are responsible for the site’s content. There is a difference. I suppose I could’ve ignored it, as you said, and passed it off as just another looney web site for UFO enthusiasts. But since it features anti-Semitic ravings and links to white supremacist sites it kind of, you know, ticks me off. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-as-a-leader/234223/29 "2004-03-16T01:18:25Z")
Leaving aside 95% of the OP (which was wacked, as usual…jets sitting on the tarmac with weapons and fuel, preped and ready to go? In what universe?) and focusing on the one decent question: Is Bush a good leader? I’d have to say that, IMO he is not. From my perspective Bush neither leads nor follows but kind of just does his own thing along with a small close circle of advisors. I think the time for leadership, both of the country and even to the world was when 9/11 happened. I’m no appeaser wanting America to check with every odd country out there for permission to do this or that, but I think a golden oppertunity was lost when Bush didn’t rally the world (or at least NATO) behind us for Afghanistan. I also think that, after that affront (which a good diplomat would NOT have blundered in) the follow up by going off tangent into Iraq really showed Bush at his worst. So no…he’s not a good leader IMO. A good leader LEADS, but is mindful of those who are following him. Bush is not. -XT ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-as-a-leader/234223/30 "2004-03-16T19:52:05Z")
I only vote against people so Gore got my vote. I just watched Bush on TV for 10 minutes and wondered what was wrong with the Republicans. The only reason I would vote for GWB for dog catcher is because it would be so much fun watching the dogs outsmart him. Dal Timgar > [@iamme99](#): > > I got suckered into voting for Bush last election (the “compassionate conservative”) but I can assure you that I won’t be making the same mistake again (not that it mattered since Gore won CA anyway). I am completely disgusted with his far-right-leaning administration, his seeming lack of intelligence and his blatant moral hypocrisy. Republicans want to talk about Bush as a strong “Leader”. Is he really a “leader”? Will he go down in history with men like Patton and Churchill? I think not. > > Let’s look at how and where Bush has LED us so far: > > - Bush has LED us into a loss of 3 million jobs (and still counting) on his watch. Meanwhile, his economic advisor says sending more jobs overseas is GOOD for the economy (i.e. corporations and wealthy owners). Oh, and don’t forget that making hamburgers is manufacturing job \. > > - Bush has LED us into the biggest national deficit ever due to the unnecessary Iraq war, unwise tax cuts for the already wealthy and unrestrained spending. Bush has yet to veto any spending bill to come across his desk. The lack of financial understanding in this administration will haunt us far into the future. > > - Bush has LED us into the quagmires of Iraq & Afghanistan. What’s next in 2005? Syria, Iran and/or North Korea or all of them? > > - Bush using fear & intimidation in the name of “Homeland” security, LEADS us into a world of paranoia, where we are supposed to live in fear our own shadow, with a terrorist supposedly lurking around every corner. > > - Bush LED us into the 9-11 disaster by ignoring previous intelligence that this sort of an attack was a real possibility. And even with the attack underway, with all of our super technology, we somehow couldn’t scramble fighters in time to stop even one of the 3 planes from hitting its target. > > - Bush is rabidly against environmental protection while pooh-poohing the cause and effect of worldwide rising temperatures on the climate, LEADING us deeper into the global warming or icing problem. > > - Bush wants to LEAD us into becoming an evangelical fundamentalist Christian nation, regardless of what anyone else’s beliefs are. This is no different than what any other religious fundamentalist faction such as the Taliban wants to do for their “perfect” religion. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-as-a-leader/234223/31 "2004-03-16T19:58:31Z")
Is Bush a leader? Yeah, I guess. So was Custer. “We got 'em now, boys! Got all 1100 of 'em, riding around in a circle, all we gotta (ouch!) do now (mmmm, that stings!) is pick 'em off! (oooooof!..)” ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-as-a-leader/234223/32 "2004-03-17T01:03:25Z")
The hell is wrong with you people? Objectively speaking, if the subject at hand is merely the question of Bush’s _effectiveness_ as a leader, regardless of whether you agree about where he’s been leading us, then he gets high marks. He wanted a massive (and irresponsible) tax cut. He got it. He wanted to invade Iraq. He got it. He wanted to marginalize the United Nations. He got it. He wanted to push the judiciary to the right. Including his recess appointments, he’s getting what he wants. And so on, and so forth. Look, I’m with those who say Bush’s policies are short-sighted, divisive, and ultimately destructive. I cannot _wait_ to vote against these selfish bastards. But you cannot underestimate the power of the machine that has been assembled; it is focused, it is ruthless, and it has not yet encountered an obstacle into which it couldn’t at least put a huge dent, if not crush it entirely. Forget “good” or “bad” as adjectives, for they carry much unrelated baggage. If you consider Bush as a leader, and use as your criteria what he has been able to accomplish, then he’s a freakin’ juggernaut. ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-as-a-leader/234223/33 "2004-03-17T02:50:30Z")
Just goes to show - you can fool most of the people most of the time! ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-as-a-leader/234223/34 "2004-03-17T03:24:42Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Forget “good” or “bad” as adjectives, for they carry much unrelated baggage. If you consider Bush as a leader, and use as your criteria what he has been able to accomplish, then he’s a freakin’ juggernaut. But a juggernaut with mounting credibility issues even within his own party: > [@](#): > > (Hastert) The Republican leader from Illinois also took a shot at White House negotiators, saying he will now discuss the issue only with Bush. “I don’t deal with his people any more. We weren’t getting straight numbers from his people and they changed their mind in the middle of the process.” [The tank blows a track](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52311-2004Mar12.html) ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-as-a-leader/234223/35 "2004-03-17T03:35:00Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > And so on, and so forth. Look, I’m with those who say Bush’s policies are short-sighted, divisive, and ultimately destructive. I cannot _wait_ to vote against these selfish bastards. But you cannot underestimate the power of the machine that has been assembled; it is focused, it is ruthless, and it has not yet encountered an obstacle into which it couldn’t at least put a huge dent, if not crush it entirely. ``` Yours is certainly a different perspective on leadership... but you answer the issue yourself when you say "machine that has been assembled". Bush is not leading anymore... the machine around him is and his cabinet people are taking him for the ride. Passengers are not leaders. ``` ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-as-a-leader/234223/36 "2004-03-17T07:56:01Z")
I just hope our next president apologizes to the rest of the world for GW’s irresponsible behavior. If I were to visit a foreign country tomorrow, I would certainly be hesitant to say I am an American. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-as-a-leader/234223.md?page=1)