# Bush attacks critics claim pre-war intel was manipulated. Huge balls or delusional? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676 "2005-11-12T03:58:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/201 "2005-11-13T21:37:33Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Of course. Why would I want them to die/kill rather than stop fighting and come back home? > Nope. It’s enough to justify it for them, not for me. If I disagree with them on this issue, I’m not going to “support” them. I might even accuse them of being evil-doers. Or do worse (assuming that I’d have the balls to do worse, which isn’t a given). I think I understand your point. My support for the troops is that I don’t blame them for obeying orders or believing as they believe. I hope they return safely home, and I hope we as a nation pull them out of there ASAP so there are as few deaths American and Iraqi at the hands of Americans as possible. The next question is if and when we pull out and the violence there continues will we be blamed for that as wel, because we unable to fix it after we broke it? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2005, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/202 "2005-11-13T21:45:38Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > The next question is if and when we pull out and the violence there continues will we be blamed for that as wel, because we unable to fix it after we broke it? And if so - because I’m sure the answer is yes - how much of that blame is deserved? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2005, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/203 "2005-11-13T21:52:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And if so - because I’m sure the answer is yes - how much of that blame is deserved? Tough question isn’t it? To some degree I’d say we do have partial responsibility but people are ultimately responsible for their own choices. I understand Iraqi’s and other Arabs believing that the US wants military and economic control of the middle east and seeing us as foreign invaders. Once we are gone and that excuse for violence is removed there will be a bloody battle for control. They could choose otherwise but they won’t. I’m not convinced that’s our fault. I remember reading articles about how US sanctions against Hussien were causeing such hardship among the Iraqi people and how awful we were. I noticed that none of these articles actually blamed the ruler oif the country for allowing those sanctions to continue when he could simply cooperate to help his own people. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2005, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/204 "2005-11-13T22:01:23Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Tough question isn’t it? To some degree I’d say we do have partial responsibility but people are ultimately responsible for their own choices. Unfortunately, this sounds a little like Rumsfeld’s comment about historic sites being looted: “in a free society, people are free to commit crimes.” It’s not false, but the foreign terrorists never get into the country and the insurgents don’t “make their own choices” if the US doesn’t invade. It’s indisputable that we “broke” Iraq. > [@](#): > > I remember reading articles about how US sanctions against Hussien were causeing such hardship among the Iraqi people and how awful we were. I noticed that none of these articles actually blamed the ruler oif the country for allowing those sanctions to continue when he could simply cooperate to help his own people. I can’t vouch for what you remember, but I don’t think that’s how the conversation went. I seem to recall that US leadership had committed to continuing the sanctions regardless of Iraqi compliance. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/205 "2005-11-13T22:52:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And if so - because I’m sure the answer is yes - how much of that blame is deserved? Like you I’m pretty sure that we can’t fix what we broke. I don’t see how a culture and society that we don’t understand very well can be fixed in the way that GW speaks of, _i.e._ a western style, secular democracy. I believe that would require something like imprisoning all of the adults and children over 2 years old and starting over. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/206 "2005-11-14T00:39:12Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Unfortunately, this sounds a little like Rumsfeld’s comment about historic sites being looted: “in a free society, people are free to commit crimes.” It’s not false, but the foreign terrorists never get into the country and the insurgents don’t “make their own choices” if the US doesn’t invade. It’s indisputable that we “broke” Iraq. No arguement here about the past. We can’t undo bad decisions. My point is what happens now and what can we do about it? We can accept the responsibility that our poor planning opened the door for looters. Now what. Staying and trying to establish a democracy we can work with is likely to fail miserably. If we pull out there will no doubt be a bloody civil war. Faced with these choices we still must choose. > [@](#): > > I can’t vouch for what you remember, but I don’t think that’s how the conversation went. I seem to recall that US leadership had committed to continuing the sanctions regardless of Iraqi compliance. My point was not the details of the timeline. It was that the articles I read exclusively blamed the US for the damage done rather than mention the fact that there was a leader of Iraq who bore the primary responsibility for his citizens. That doesn’t free us from the consequences of our own decisions but it doesn’t make us responsible for his, or in present day theirs. Those that choose to resist US presence in the middle east choose which method they will use. We are not responsible for the specifics of their choices. When some nut decides to strap a bomb to himself and blow up a group of his own countrymen that’s his responsibility not ours. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/207 "2005-11-14T00:41:50Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Like you I’m pretty sure that we can’t fix what we broke. I don’t see how a culture and society that we don’t understand very well can be fixed in the way that GW speaks of, _i.e._ a western style, secular democracy. I believe that would require something like imprisoning all of the adults and children over 2 years old and starting over. Thats been my feeling all along. We can’t place a democracy among a population that just isn’t ready for it. They have to want it and be willing to work for themselves. That requires the evolution of a culture from within. We can encourage and push and entice in that direction, but we can’t make that choice for them. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/208 "2005-11-14T01:15:41Z")
> [@Daily Kos](#): > > Bush Limited Access and Disclosures of Classified Information to only 8 Members of Congress per a policy memo written and signed on October 5, 2001. Therefore, Congress could not possibly have had access to the same intelligence information that the White House had. “We can’t have leaks of classified information. It’s not in our nation’s interest.” - President George W. Bush, 10/9/01. > > President Bush’s defiant statement came in the immediate weeks following 9/11, as the administration clamped down on the information it provided to Congress. President Bush issued an order limiting access to classified intelligence only to 8 members of Congress – the Speaker of the House, House Minority Leader, Senate Majority Leader, Senate Minority Leader, and chairmen and ranking members of the House and Senate intelligence committees. However, when it is Bush, Cheney, Libby, Rove or any other one of the inner circle leaking info, then its all hunky dory. National interest justifies anything they want to do, including misrepresenting to Congress and putting forth a false reason for war. When things go sour, you can then blame the congress that supported you, based on the faulty data YOU fed them. President Bush pulled classified intelligence access for 92 senators: > [@The Memo](#): > > MEMORANDUM FOR: > > THE SECRETARY OF STATE > THE SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY > THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE > THE ATTORNEY GENERAL > THE DIRECTOR OF CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE > THE DIRECTOR OF FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION > > SUBJECT: Disclosures to the Congress > > As we wage our campaign to respond to the terrorist attacks against the United States on September 11, and to protect us from further acts of terrorism, I intend to continue to work closely with the Congress. Consistent with the longstanding executive branch practice, this Administration will continue to work to inform the leadership of the Congress about the course of, and important developments in, our critical military, intelligence, and law enforcement operations. At the same time, we have an obligation to protect military operational security, intelligence sources and methods, and sensitive law enforcement investigations. Accordingly, your departments should adhere to the following procedures when providing briefings to the Congress relating to the information we have or the actions we plan to take: > > i) Only you or officers expressly designated by you may brief Members of Congress regarding classified or sensitive law enforcement information; and > > (ii) The only Members of Congress whom you or your expressly designated officers may brief regarding classified or sensitive law enforcement information are the Speaker of the House, the House Minority Leader, the Senate Majority and Minority Leaders, and the Chairs and Ranking Members of the Intelligence Committees in the House and Senate. > > This approach will best serve our shared goals of protecting American lives, maintaining the proper level of confidentiality for the success of our military, intelligence, and law enforcement operations, and keeping the leadership of the Congress appropriately informed about important developments. This morning, I informed the House and Senate leadership of this policy which shall remain in effect until you receive further notice from me. > > [signed:] George W. Bush the First Senate Report, that is not in any way ambiguous: > [@Senate Reort](#): > > From The First Senate Report > > (U) Conclusion 85. The Intelligence Community’s elimination of the caveats from the unclassified White Paper misrepresented their judgments to the public which did not have access to the classified National Intelligence Estimate containing the more carefully worded assessments. > > Conclusion 86. The names of agencies which had dissenting opinions in the classified National Intelligence Estimate were not included in the unclassified white paper and in the case of the unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), the dissenting opinion was excluded completely. In both cases in which there were dissenting opinions, the dissenting agencies were widely regarded as the primary subject matter experts on the issues in question. Excluding the names of the agencies provided readers with an incomplete picture of the nature and extent of the debate within the Intelligence Community regarding these issues. > > Conclusion 87. The key judgment in the unclassified October 2002 White Paper on Iraq’s potential to deliver biological agents conveyed a level of threat to the United States homeland inconsistent with the classified National Intelligence Estimate. This is merely more info, and it coincides with what I have already cited. Congress was lied to, just like the rest of us were lied to. Now Bush dares to say, on Veterans Day even, that the people calling him on it are the liars, not him. That takes huge immense BRASS balls. Or severe insanity. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/209 "2005-11-14T01:37:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And, as has been noted on several occasions, already, no defender of the adminstration’s claim that they _thought_ there were WoMD in Iraq has provided any explanation why the military groups whose task it was to secure WoMD sites was ordered to remain miles behind the lines and forbidden to enter “suspected” sites for days after they had originally been taken in combat. > > To fail to secure WoMD sites, leaving them open to be plundered by any insurgents or al Qaida operatives in the area indicates pretty clearly that the administration either knew the sites were empty or that the administration was criminally negligent. I think this point is something that can not be repeated often enough! We should be yelling this one at every opportunity. In fact, it boggles my mind that more people aren’t bothered to death by this! Why haven’t even the Democrats in Congress been demanding that the President explain to them in full detail just what his plan to keep WMD out of the hands of terrorists was during and after the invasion. Because if they had any such plan, they did a freakin’ spectacular job hiding it! Another point that hasn’t been made yet in this thread (or just touched upon) is the difference between what we knew in October 2002 and what we knew by March 2003. In October 2002, we arguably might have had good reasons to believe that Saddam had WMD. [However, by February / March 2003, the inspectors had shown that the U.S. intelligence was complete and utter crap.](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/18/iraq/main537096.shtml) This did not prove that Saddam definitively did not have WMD, since it is nearly impossible to prove a negative like that, but it did prove that our reasons for being so cock-sure that he did were simply fantasy and fiction. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/210 "2005-11-14T01:52:15Z")
Oh yeah, another point, here is what Bush actually said the other day: > [@](#): > > “When I made the decision to remove Saddam Hussein from power, Congress approved it with strong bipartisan support,” It amazes me that Bush actually makes this statement: “When I made the decision to remove Saddam Hussein from power…”. That is simply amazing. He is admitting what some of us said all along which is that the son-of-a-bitch was a freakin’ liar and that the resolution about Iraq was not about “keeping the peace” as the President claimed but rather that he had already made the decision to go to war. **He just admitted this!** [He also has a somewhat generous definition of “strong bipartisan support”. I suppose you could call the support for the resolution that in the sense that a fair number of Democrats supported it. But, a majority of the Democrats in the House actually voted against the resolution. And, while a majority of all of the Democrats in the Senate voted for it, a majority of the Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee (i.e., those with the best, but by no means total access to the intelligence) voted against it.] ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/211 "2005-11-14T02:09:55Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > Oh yeah, another point, here is what Bush actually said the other day: > > It amazes me that Bush actually makes this statement: “When I made the decision to remove Saddam Hussein from power…”. That is simply amazing. He is admitting what some of us said all along which is that the son-of-a-bitch was a freakin’ liar and that the resolution about Iraq was not about “keeping the peace” as the President claimed but rather that he had already made the decision to go to war. **He just admitted this!** > > [He also has a somewhat generous definition of “strong bipartisan support”. I suppose you could call the support for the resolution that in the sense that a fair number of Democrats supported it. But, a majority of the Democrats in the House actually voted against the resolution. And, while a majority of all of the Democrats in the Senate voted for it, a majority of the Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee (i.e., those with the best, but by no means total access to the intelligence) voted against it.] I am dumbfounded that anyone at all continues to believe Bush. I am dumbfounded that he got away with presenting doctored evidence to Congress. He has, all his life, always gotten away with everything. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/212 "2005-11-14T02:55:40Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > This is merely more info, and it coincides with what I have already cited. Congress was lied to, just like the rest of us were lied to. Now Bush dares to say, on Veterans Day even, that the people calling him on it are the liars, not him. That takes huge immense BRASS balls. Or severe insanity. I vote insane; as far as I can tell, these are people who _believe_ their own propaganda. My favorite example is the WMD debacle; why didn’t they plant any ? They certainly have no moral scruples to stop them, nor do they lack loyal followers to do the work. For months after the invasion, I expected we would “find” a large cache of weapons, “vindicating” the invasion. I believe it never happened because these people believe what they say, regardless of lack of evidence and any inconsistances. They are True Believers, and honestly think their beliefs override reality; reality is for the “reality based community”, not them. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/213 "2005-11-14T04:01:20Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > They are True Believers, and honestly think their beliefs override reality; reality is for the “reality based community”, not them. Well for what it’s worth, I was just informed by An Annointed True Believer that I am a rabid America hater and a Glen Close (whatever the hell that means). I guess I should tear up my army discharge papers, throw away my “road guard ribbon” and quit my government job. That way I can devote more time to America hating. Is there something wrong in wanting my country to actually follow the fine sounding words it was founded on? Silly things like honor, freedom, justice, truth, decency, etc. Is it now a criminal act to want my country to be an example of what could and should be? Churchill once said of us something to the effect that Americans always do the right thing after exhausting all other options. In a sly way, he was calling us clueless, but havining our heart in the right place. What would he say about us now? What would Washington, Lincoln, Ike, Kennedy, Roosevlet or Goldwater say? How about Jefferson? Carter has already come out and said he is pretty disgusted. Who knew it. An ex president is an America hater too. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/214 "2005-11-14T04:59:33Z")
Huge balls + delusional = BERSERK. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/215 "2005-11-14T05:16:40Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I am dumbfounded that anyone at all continues to believe Bush. I am dumbfounded that he got away with presenting doctored evidence to Congress. He has, all his life, always gotten away with everything. It was predictable that GW would screw things up because he always has. The trajedy in this case is that his father’s rich friends can’t bail him out of this one and he has taken the rest of us with him. He has committed us to a war that is unwinnable by military methods (Unless, of course, you just kill everyon). He has alienated the great majority of the rest of the world, and he has increased the national debt to the point where servicing it is getting to be a real problem, with no end in sight. And that’s without mentioning the dire effects of his economic and tax policies on the middle class. The news just recently tells of the proposal by his tax revision panel to restrict home mortgage interest deduction on the income tax and drastic changes in the college loan program. At the same time a tax break for capital gains and other changes of benefit to business and those in the tax bracket of Warren Buffet are pushed hard for. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/216 "2005-11-14T05:24:54Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > No arguement here about the past. We can’t undo bad decisions. My point is what happens now and what can we do about it? We can accept the responsibility that our poor planning opened the door for looters. Now what. Staying and trying to establish a democracy we can work with is likely to fail miserably. If we pull out there will no doubt be a bloody civil war. Faced with these choices we still must choose. Sure. Since you asked about blame, I was just saying that I expect we’ll get a lot of it, and that might not be unfair. > [@](#): > > My point was not the details of the timeline. It was that the articles I read exclusively blamed the US for the damage done rather than mention the fact that there was a leader of Iraq who bore the primary responsibility for his citizens. I suppose no one expected better from him. > [@](#): > > Those that choose to resist US presence in the middle east choose which method they will use. We are not responsible for the specifics of their choices. When some nut decides to strap a bomb to himself and blow up a group of his own countrymen that’s his responsibility not ours. No, but in some ways we are responsible for the situation that created the choices, so as I was saying, we’ll be blamed for that. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/217 "2005-11-14T06:36:03Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Carter has already come out and said he is pretty disgusted. Who knew it. An ex president is an America hater too. That’s not news. The right wingers I’ve met seem have some sort of bizarre hatred for the man that I can’t fathom. Some of them were going ballistic when they learned a US Naval vessel(I think it was a submarine) was to be named for him. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/218 "2005-11-14T14:14:48Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Well for what it’s worth, I was just informed by An Annointed True Believer that I am a rabid America hater and a Glen Close (whatever the hell that means). It means that if you were married to Kevin Kline, you would let Mary Kay Place fuck him just because her biological clock ticking had gotten kinda loud. You BITCH!!! ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/219 "2005-11-14T14:29:06Z")
I think it is absurd to suggest criticism here in the States makes the insurgency in Iraq stronger. I doubt most insurgents know what’s going on here. Regardless of what we say, though, I would suspect the deaths of their family members, the ongoing strife in their streets and lack of security and infrastructure in much of the country has a somewhat stronger influence on their motivations. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/220 "2005-11-14T15:15:03Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > My favorite example is the WMD debacle; why didn’t they plant any ? They certainly have no moral scruples to stop them, nor do they lack loyal followers to do the work. For months after the invasion, I expected we would “find” a large cache of weapons, “vindicating” the invasion. I believe it never happened because these people believe what they say, regardless of lack of evidence and any inconsistances. They are True Believers, and honestly think their beliefs override reality; reality is for the “reality based community”, not them. Well, I halfway agree with you. I think that they expected to find **something** that they could point to justify the invasion. That they found **nothing** probably did come as a surprise. You might even notice that once the invasion began there was a continual lowering of expectations. No longer were we looking for hundreds of tons of this and that…all of a sudden one or two drums of some decaying chemical agent would have sufficed. (Of course, in the end what sufficed was some “WMD program related activities”.) But, I don’t believe they believed themselves in regards to there being a real danger from Iraq’s WMDs. Certainly, they don’t seem to have been at all concerned about them falling into the hands of terrorists. Or else, they were so mind-numbingly inept that it is beyond my comprehension to understand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676.md?page=12)