# Bush attacks critics claim pre-war intel was manipulated. Huge balls or delusional? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676 "2005-11-12T03:58:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/301 "2005-11-17T03:20:17Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > their heinous crimes. Just to make it absolutely clear, “their” refers to the leaders here…not the troops. I do not agree with **Der Trihs** in condemning the troops who (with the exception of a few) are trying to do the best in a bad situation. And, while I do certainly applaud the few who have refused to go to Iraq at risk of court martial, I do not think it is reasonable to expect soldiers to do this. I honor the service of those who do serve but condemn with all my fervor the “leaders” who sent them there. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/302 "2005-11-17T03:22:45Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > Couldn’t help but pipe in on this one. I agree with you that there is a strong human nature to want to believe that the cause that you are participating in (whether you want to or not) is just. Especially after you take some losses: [Loss aversion and the sunk cost fallacy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost) ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/303 "2005-11-17T03:35:27Z")
If our troops believe that they are fighting for freedom, we do not honor them by surrendering our own. After all, when we are silent, people start making assumptions. **Magellan01** , what about the Iraqi vets? Should they surrender their rights to criticize Bush’s decisions until the war is over? At what point will it become acceptable to discuss the truth about the reasons given for this war? Don’t you think those who sacrificed are going to find out sooner or later? It’s not as if Bush made one big decision about the war and that decision is in the past. Those decisions continue. Most of the country isn’t of a mind to give him positive feedback for what he is doing. Why are you so hellbent on making assumptions and categorizing? Why not just live with the knowledge that people who are against the war _may_ have only that in common and little else? Each of us – hippie chicks included – is a full human being and not a cardboard cutout. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/304 "2005-11-17T04:08:10Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > [As reported on May 8, 2003](http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?bid=3&pid=654), > 30 days from the fall of Baghdad and one week after President Bush proclaimed “Mission Accomplished!”. I’ll take a stab at what that report is saying between the lines… There was no rush to search for the WMD, because the people in power already knew there were no weapons TO find. I see no other reason to be so lackadaisical about securing them. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/305 "2005-11-17T04:41:27Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > The best way to show support for the troops is to DEMAND that they not have to throw their lives away on a wrong or lost cause. Once again, Bush refuses to accept any responsibility for a situation of his own making, while others die for his mistakes. What is more important to you: the first sentence or the second? If it’s the first, I suggest you work toward that end without the distraction of shitting on Bush. As I pointed out, I think this strategy has two benefits: 1) It does not undercut troop morale. 2) **It is more effective.** By taking Bush off the table, so to speak, you greatly increase the odds of your desire being embraced by many, many more people. Which, I think you might agree, is key. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/306 "2005-11-17T04:48:05Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What is more important to you: the first sentence or the second? If it’s the first, I suggest you work toward that end without the distraction of shitting on Bush. As I pointed out, I think this strategy has two benefits: 1) It does not undercut troop morale. 2) **It is more effective.** By taking Bush off the table, so to speak, you greatly increase the odds of your desire being embraced by many, many more people. Which, I think you might agree, is key. What is your evidence that it is a more effective tactic? Right now, 65% of Americans think Bush is screwing up in general. Seems to me that this tactic is working like gangbusters. And how can one address the many, many things that are wrong with this war, both logistically and morally, without bringing up Bush? If you take everything Bush has done wrong in this conflict off the table, there isn’t anything left on the table! ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/307 "2005-11-17T04:54:13Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > And, you know, it is the pathetic sick chicken-hawks like George Bush, Dick Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld who cynically use this natural feature of human nature to their advantage for their own twisted ends. See, when I think about how the troops are in the position where they have to try to believe in an illusion, I don’t get mad at those who may be trying to shatter the illusion in order to get them out of that hellhole sooner. Instead, I just get pissed as all hell at the low forms of life who put them into that hellhole and who are now using the fact that troops and families have a natural tendency to want to believe this in order to defend their heinous crimes. I have just been trying to offer that if the goal is to get the troops out of harm’s way, it is not necessary, or even helpful, to shatter the illusion. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/308 "2005-11-17T05:01:04Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I have just been trying to offer that if the goal is to get the troops out of harm’s way, it is not necessary, or even helpful, to shatter the illusion. You may be underestimating their intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/309 "2005-11-17T05:07:25Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **Magellan01** , what about the Iraqi vets? Should they surrender their rights to criticize Bush’s decisions until the war is over? I assume you are talking about the _American_ vets who served in Iraq. (Please corect me if I am mistaken.) These vets have as much right to criticize the “rightness” of this war as any other American. No more, no less. I would wish that they would exercise the same prudence I suggest of civilians. Now when it comes to criticizing how the war was and is bing prosecuted, I encourage them to share their first-hand observations. The good and the bad. But particularly the bad, as it will point to areas that need improvement. > [@Zoe](#): > > At what point will it become acceptable to discuss the truth about the reasons given for this war? Don’t you think those who sacrificed are going to find out sooner or later? I think that after our soldiers are in harm’s way would be a good milestone. > [@Zoe](#): > > Why are you so hellbent on making assumptions and categorizing? Why not just live with the knowledge that people who are against the war _may_ have only that in common and little else? Each of us – hippie chicks included – is a full human being and not a cardboard cutout. I’m not. I’m just defending being human. We put thiings in categories, that’s how we organize the world. When more information comes in, we organize the information into more and smaller packets. I think it is ridiculous to ask peolpe to not do that. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/310 "2005-11-17T05:20:27Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What is your evidence that it is a more effective tactic? Right now, 65% of Americans think Bush is screwing up in general. Seems to me that this tactic is working like gangbusters. And how can one address the many, many things that are wrong with this war, both logistically and morally, without bringing up Bush? If you take everything Bush has done wrong in this conflict off the table, there isn’t anything left on the table! Before we can discuss tactics, we need to discuss goals. If the goal is to try to crush Bush, to attempt to equate him with evil or stupidity or mendacity or underhandedness, then the usual tactics—the ones you see on this board and elsewhere every day—will work just fine. And they should be continued. I, on the other hand, the goal is to stop a war you think is senseless and get the troops home where they are out of harm’s way, then I thiink the strategy displayed in the letter I wrote would be much more effective. Why? Numbers. The 65% you cite is probably not going to go much lower. As is popinted out repeatedly on these boards, there are supporters of Bush that will NEVER be part of “the reality-based community”. So, by taking Bush off the table and making a legitimate and compelling argument that we should ALL want the war to stop now (again, see letter), you remove an obstacle (Bush’s reputation among his supporters) for a large group of people to join you. Heck, I thiink the case should be so compelling and rational, that it makes it easy for Bush to swallow it. Again, that assumes that the goal is to stop the war and bring the troops home. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/311 "2005-11-17T05:44:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Before we can discuss tactics, we need to discuss goals. If the goal is to try to crush Bush, to attempt to equate him with evil or stupidity or mendacity or underhandedness, then the usual tactics—the ones you see on this board and elsewhere every day—will work just fine. And they should be continued. > > I, on the other hand, the goal is to stop a war you think is senseless and get the troops home where they are out of harm’s way, then I thiink the strategy displayed in the letter I wrote would be much more effective. Why? Numbers. The 65% you cite is probably not going to go much lower. As is popinted out repeatedly on these boards, there are supporters of Bush that will NEVER be part of “the reality-based community”. So, by taking Bush off the table and making a legitimate and compelling argument that we should ALL want the war to stop now (again, see letter), you remove an obstacle (Bush’s reputation among his supporters) for a large group of people to join you. Heck, I thiink the case should be so compelling and rational, that it makes it easy for Bush to swallow it. Again, that assumes that the goal is to stop the war and bring the troops home. I don’t think you can seperate opposition to this war with criticism of George Bush. Remember what I said earlier: I was an early supporter of the war, despite being opposed to Bush. If the war had been handled competently and honestly, I would still support it. It has not. It has been bungled on every level, for purely venal reasons. As a direct result of that, I’ve come to see the war in Iraq as an unwinnable quagmire. If I don’t talk about how the war has been mishandled, about how it was waged for fraudulent and corrupt reasons, _I have nothing left to criticize about the war._ This entire misadventure is inextricably linked to the Bush administration. You simply cannot discuss one without discussing the other. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/312 "2005-11-17T06:04:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t think you can seperate opposition to this war with criticism of George Bush. Remember what I said earlier: I was an early supporter of the war, despite being opposed to Bush. If the war had been handled competently and honestly, I would still support it. It has not. It has been bungled on every level, for purely venal reasons. As a direct result of that, I’ve come to see the war in Iraq as an unwinnable quagmire. If I don’t talk about how the war has been mishandled, about how it was waged for fraudulent and corrupt reasons, _I have nothing left to criticize about the war._ This entire misadventure is inextricably linked to the Bush administration. You simply cannot discuss one without discussing the other. Well, it simply depends what your goal is. I thought you said earlier it was to end the war in order to bring the troops home. If that is not the goal, other strategies and tactics would undoubtedly serve you better. For the reasons already mentioned, you’ll understand if I don’t wish you luck. But I appreciated exploring the issue with you in depth. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/313 "2005-11-17T11:56:43Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > [As reported on May 8, 2003](http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?bid=3&pid=654), > 30 days from the fall of Baghdad and one week after President Bush proclaimed “Mission Accomplished!”. Thanks to you both. I hope to find more. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/314 "2005-11-17T18:19:58Z")
I have to admit that I haven’t read all of this thread, but I was listening to CNN and thought I’d throw this out. More people are calling for the U.S. to withdraw its troops from Iraq. A Republican supporter of the war said that pulling out now would mean that the over 2,000 Americans who died will have died in vain. This reminds me of two sayings: 1. In for a penny, in for a pound. 2. Don’t throw good money after bad. Seems the war supporters are operating under the first one. That is, ‘We’re in it. We have to keep putting more into it until we win.’ The anti-war folks (which includes me) seem to be operating under the second one. That is, ‘Look. This was a bad investment from the start. We shouldn’t waste more lives on something we shouldn’t have started in the first place.’ Perhaps the 2,079 Americans (last I heard) who died will not have lost their lives in vain, if their sacrifices have opened the eyes of Americans making future ‘foreign adventures’ less likely. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/315 "2005-11-17T18:44:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What is more important to you: the first sentence or the second? If it’s the first, I suggest you work toward that end without the distraction of shitting on Bush. As I pointed out, I think this strategy has two benefits: 1) It does not undercut troop morale. 2) **It is more effective.** By taking Bush off the table, so to speak, you greatly increase the odds of your desire being embraced by many, many more people. Which, I think you might agree, is key. I would love to take Bush off the table. As in you’re fired. As in you’re not welcome anymore. Or, just as in “shut up and let someone clean up the mess”. The problem is Bush himself. He won’t stop and he won’t shut up. He won’t go away. He created the problem; he is the problem; he keeps aggravating and perpetuation the problem. He keeps dividing and polarizing any rational or moderate people who might otherwise work together. It must be a deliberate thing. Take his Veterans Day speech. Veterans Day is traditionally a day to recognize all soldiers past and present. It is a day supposedly to relfect on their contributions and sacrifices. What did Bush do? He used the day to make a divisive and combative speech (a diatribe) blaming everyone in the country for everything, absolving himself of all blame, and ALMOST calling everyone else a traitor. He lied again, with his whiny blather about misrepresenting and re-writing. The News called it cowardly and Nixonian (I suppose they meant that as a serious insult). Like I said, he won’t shut up. So, no I won’t take Bush off the table. It would just be letting him off the hook again. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/316 "2005-11-17T18:51:48Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > A Republican supporter of the war said that pulling out now would mean that the over 2,000 Americans who died will have died in vain. That argument was also used during Vietnam. It was a false argument then, and it is now. “We can’t pull out now, look at all the people who died” = “More people have to die because people have already died.” They already died in vain, because the cause was false. Making more die simply compounds the insult. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/317 "2005-11-17T18:54:41Z")
Similarly, the war supporters many times do mention, “we broke it, we own it” I have to say: you need to get the bull out of the china shop: > **[Unembedded](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2005/11/16/165457/-)** > > Unembedded is a stunning book of photographs from four photojournalists roaming Iraq without U.S. military escorts. Over the next week I'll be featuring photos from the book. > > Click on photo to e... BAGHDAD, SEPTEMBER 12, 2004 > [@](#): > > A young Iraqi civilian lies dead in Haifa Street as a U.S. armored personnel carrier burns in the background. Twenty-two Iraqi civilians were killed and forty-eight injured when U.S. helicopters opened fire on crowds celebrating around the burning vehicle, which was disabled by an insurgent attack. No American soldiers were killed in the fighting. Now, I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt here and assume the helicopter crew did not realize that the Americans from the carrier were out already, but the end result is the same: twenty civilians that were not part of the insurgency are dead. If one wants to make the point they deserved it just because they were celebrating, it should really be a clue that after all the elections and “progress” Iraqis do not want us there. In case you think that was only because of Baghdad being on a Sunni area, the last poll made by the British government shows that the majority of Iraqis do want us out. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/318 "2005-11-17T18:59:23Z")
As I said before, I think the most apt aphorism is Turkish: No matter how far you’ve gone down the wrong road, turn back. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/319 "2005-11-17T23:19:16Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Veterans Day is traditionally a day to recognize all soldiers past and present. It is a day supposedly to relfect on their contributions and sacrifices. What did Bush do? He used the day to make a divisive and combative speech (a diatribe) blaming everyone in the country for everything, absolving himself of all blame, and ALMOST calling everyone else a traitor. As for me I don’t want GW or Cheney or Rumsfeld to be a part of Veteran’s Day (Armistice Day as it used to be and I think still should be but that’s another story). The only thing that GW can do for veterans as far as I am concerned is to stop shorting the funding for the Veterans’ Administration. Otherwise just shut up and sit down. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/320 "2005-11-18T00:55:49Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > The only thing that GW can do for veterans as far as I am concerned is to stop shorting the funding for the Veterans’ Administration. That would be a very good way to show support for the troops, wouldn’t it. But it won’t happen. That’s how well they support the troops. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676.md?page=17)