# Bush attacks critics claim pre-war intel was manipulated. Huge balls or delusional? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676 "2005-11-12T03:58:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/61 "2005-11-12T09:41:25Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Well, you should be, I do see the American soldiers also as the victims here. > > It is all a matter of being specific: the soldiers that tortured in Abu Ghraib and in other places, or try to hide massacres like the one that wiped out an Iraqi wedding party don’t deserve sympathy. > > But your comment that “They are fighting for an evil cause, and deserve no sympathy or support” was stupid, because it includes even soldiers that oppose the war. [http://www.ivaw.net/](http://www.ivaw.net/) > > Reserve comments like that for the current leadership. If the are _over there_ killing Iraqis, I really don’t care if they oppose the war. I’d put a bullet in my own head before I murdered someone for Bush, and that’s what they are doing. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/62 "2005-11-12T09:51:01Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > If the are _over there_ killing Iraqis, I really don’t care if they oppose the war. I’d put a bullet in my own head before I murdered someone for Bush, and that’s what they are doing. :rolleyes: Some of the soldiers in the link are going to jail precisely to not go to Iraq, and you are really an ignorant when you are not recognizing that even soldiers who go with no intentions to murder still have to fight for their lives when the enemy shoots at them. So no, not all are going around murdering, and still the fact remains: someone, that deserves the scorn, ordered them to be there. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/63 "2005-11-12T10:23:38Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Some of the soldiers in the link are going to jail precisely to not go to Iraq, Then those aren’t the soldiers Der Trihs is talking about, are they. If only all your other troops had the balls to do the same. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > even soldiers who go with no intentions to murder still have to fight for their lives when the enemy shoots at them. So no, not all are going around murdering [snip] They are soldiers involved in an occupation. If they aren’t going there to kill, or help others kill, why are they there? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/64 "2005-11-12T10:36:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Then those aren’t the soldiers Der Trihs is talking about, are they. If only all your other troops had the balls to do the same. Once again: he said “They”. > [@](#): > > They are soldiers involved in an occupation. If they aren’t going there to kill, or help others kill, why are they there? Ignorance does not discriminate by age, race or rank. If the media was liberal or appreciated facts over opinions then everyone, even the military, would know the right thing to do. Besides, now you are also ignoring what following orders means, in the absence of better information, you follow the leader; in this case the leader is blind too. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/65 "2005-11-12T11:01:52Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Once again: he said “They”. Well, actually he said “ **the** are over there” 🙂 But anyway, to me, at any rate, it’s clear “they” are “they who are over there killing Iraquis”, which excludes those who are not, by virtue of the being in jail bit. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Ignorance does not discriminate by age, race or rank. If the media was liberal or appreciated facts over opinions then everyone, even the military, would know the right thing to do. Besides, now you are also ignoring what following orders means, in the absence of better information, you follow the leader; in this case the leader is blind too. “I vas only follovink orders” is no excuse, and hasn’t been since Nuremberg. Are you saying all those US troops have no access to newspapers, TV or The Internets? If not, then ignorance is not a valid reason for their continued complicity. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/66 "2005-11-12T11:10:55Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But that is not the point. Whether the claims were exaggerated or not doesn’t matter one iota to people in the field. The decision was made, past tense. The people are over there in harm’s way—now. But I think you’re using the right criteria: can you believe that any soldier is made safer by constantly throwing accusations at the President and trying to undermine his authority? Future ones? Quite possibly. Those who are now engaged are probably not made any more unsafe. I don’t think the insurgents will to blow people up depends upon statements made here in the US. Nor do I believe that troop morale is all that greatly affected by them. Soldiers don’t fight for noble, abstract causes such as “freeing the Iraqi people and bringing them democracy.” They do fight in each action because that is the group’s job for today and they are a part of the group. I think the best way to make everyone safer is to hold leaders accountable for their actions while the effects of those actions are ongoing and not wait for a later investigation which by then will have become academic. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/67 "2005-11-12T11:14:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “I vas only follovink orders” is no excuse, and hasn’t been since Nuremberg. Are you saying all those US troops have no access to newspapers, TV or The Internets? If not, then ignorance is not a valid reason for their continued complicity. Now you are being silly, the media that gets to them is mostly Fox. 🙂 Actually, it is the Armed Forces Radio and Television Service (AFRTS) and Rush Limbaugh is one of the bigger voices there. :mad: As for the _internets_, some soldiers indeed are getting the message, but officially the commanders are discouraging these efforts. [http://www.militaryproject.org/](http://www.militaryproject.org/) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/68 "2005-11-12T12:39:41Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Now you are being silly, the media that gets to them is mostly Fox. 🙂 Those poor, poor bastards 🙂 > [@GIGObuster](#): > > As for the _internets_, some soldiers indeed are getting the message, but officially the commanders are discouraging these efforts. Fighting to defend your freedoms - but they get none themselves. This has always been the soldier’s lot. I guess it’s irrational to hope we could break the chain somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/69 "2005-11-12T13:24:38Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > And of course, the charge of manipulation of intelligence has already been investigated by the Senate Intelligence Committee (which has its own independent intelligence gathering), and found to be not true. Is this correct? My understanding, which may be wrong, is that the investigation was limited to analysis of the intelligence (Phase I of the report). Manipulation of said intelligence is to be analyzed in Phase II, which is what the whole suspension of the Senate was about. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/70 "2005-11-12T13:42:14Z")
> [@Digital Stimulus](#): > > Is this correct? Nope. Your understanding is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/71 "2005-11-12T14:01:35Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Except you **Der Trihs**. I wish you a night of fear, sadness, anxiety, discomfort, homesickness, nightmares and insomnia thinking about if you’ll ever see the people you love again, to the exact degree—no more, no less—than that experienced by the most frightened 19-year-old American kid fighting in Iraq. Make that ALL your nights. Maybe then you’ll get it. With all that, maybe you shouldn’t have sent him over to Iraq then, should you? Perhaps you should be the one experiencing nights of fear, sadness, etc. You sent the kid over there to possibly die, but feel you should be able to sleep easy because you refuse to now rethink that decision or admit you were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/72 "2005-11-12T14:23:43Z")
OK. We do not allow wishes of death on other posters; I see no reason to permit wishes of harm or anxiety on other posters. Everyone knock it off, now. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/73 "2005-11-12T14:25:18Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > The Robb-Silverman investigation found the same thing Nonsense. From [their report](http://www.wmd.gov/report/report.html#overview): > [@](#): > > …we were not authorized to investigate how policymakers used the intelligence assessments they received from the Intelligence Community. Accordingly, while we interviewed a host of current and former policymakers during the course of our investigation, the purpose of those interviews was to learn about how the Intelligence Community reached and communicated its judgments about Iraq’s weapons programs–not to review how policymakers subsequently used that information. Not only did they not reach that conclusion, they weren’t even examining the question. But thanks for the recycled talking-point. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/74 "2005-11-12T15:04:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Der Trihs** > No we don’t. They are fighting for an evil cause, and deserve no sympathy or support. > > Now try to imagine how the Iraqis feel, being raped and tortured and killed by invaders. I was against this war before we went in and consider this administration to to be morally reprehensible if not downright criminal. The above however is a narrow minded self righteous load of crap. It contains the same ignorent generalities that the fundies use to attack gays, which is almost funny coming from **Der Trihs** War brings about a lot of incredible tradegy which is why it should be absolutely the last resort. Some soilders, caught up in the insanity of war do commit moral crimes. Others find within themselves incredible courage and compassion and commit acts of profound kindness and nobility. For you to paint them all with the same brush and insinuate they are all murderers just by being there is profoundly ignorant. Yes innocent Iraqi’s are being killed by American troops. When an innocent civilian is accidently killed in a war it is tragic but it is not murder. When some crazy bastard blows himself up taking many of his fellow countryman with him, that’s murder. I was around during Vietnam and I honor those that had the courage to not go and faced the consequences of that choice. I honor those who saw going as fulfilling their duty to their country and risked their lives for that conviction. I feel the same way about Iraq. I don’t excuse those who commit moral crimes against civilians while there, but I have some concept of the intense emotional trauma they go through. Since I haven’t walked in their shoes I try not to judge them too harshly. I do believe that for the most part our soilders are their trying to honor their commitment to their country and more than a few believe they are fighting for a worthy cause. Many more likely just want to survive and come home to their families. I feel for the innocent Iraqis who suffer but they are not the only victems of this war. I also feel for the tousands of American families who suffer because of this war. I remember soilders coming home from Vietnam and being spit on self righteous jackasses. I had hoped we were beyond that kind of crap. Evidently not. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/75 "2005-11-12T15:12:54Z")
> [@Digital Stimulus](#): > > Is this correct? My understanding, which may be wrong, is that the investigation was limited to analysis of the intelligence (Phase I of the report). Manipulation of said intelligence is to be analyzed in Phase II, which is what the whole suspension of the Senate was about. The phase 1 investigation itself was manipulated - they were only chartered and allowed to look at specific things, and were not allowed to examine other things (such as the disparities between the actual reports and the spin which ignored or doctored the final “data” that was sold to the USA amd tne UN). I think that this first “investigation” was meant to put all the blame on the intelligence community and exhonerate the administration. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/76 "2005-11-12T15:18:19Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Bush is delusional. With this week’s breakdown of the republican order on the hill (ANWR, budget cuts, tax cuts) it’ll soon be every congressman for himself. Some republicans [have good reason to pull out their knives:](http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/iraq/20051111-1423-bush.html) Welcome to the party Hagle. What the fuck took you so long. Oh. Running or positioning for an election. Got it. It’s good that SOME Republicans are finally saying something, but I smell some self interest here. It’s the cynic in me. Where have all these upstanding righteous Republicans been the past few years? Oh well, at least now it won’t just be the “Democrat Terror Sympathizers” asking questions. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/77 "2005-11-12T15:57:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I think it encourages the terrorists to persist and makes it easier to recruit more. Let’s look at the extreme other end of the spectrum. Let’s make believe that the left was on board with the war, that we were as unified as during WWII. Press included. Let’s also make believe that France and Germany, after registeriing their doubts, joined us at that very last hour. So, if the whole US and the western powers were fervently behind the war, do you think that it would be easier or more difficult to recruit you (making believe you are a twenty-year-old Iraqi)? As one of the insurgency, would you view your chances of success greater or less than you view it now? Do you think it would be easier or more difficult to attract mercenary terrorists from neighboring countries if we—the US and the West—had a completely unified front? Honestly? I think that, were I considering joining a group dedicated to murdering civilians of another country in retribution for a murderous occupation of my homeland, I would be MORE inclined to join up if I knew that the civilians of that other country were united in support of the war in my land. If I knew that those foreign civilians were bitterly divided about the policy, then I’d be less likely to want to commit terrorist acts against them. Way I see it, we peace protestors are preventing future terror attacks in the US by making it clear that we’re not all a bunch of Muslim-hating killers. It’s true that the hawks aren’t Muslim-hating killers, but they’re sure not making that message very clear. **magellan** , your policy toward protesting war reminds me of the guy with the leaky roof who won’t go out to fix it when it’s raining because he doesn’t want to get wet, and who won’t go out to fix it when it’s sunny because it’s not raining. If we can’t complain about foolish policies for **future** wars because they’re less important than what’s happening now, and if we can’t complain about foolish policies that led to what’s happening now, you’ve effectively silenced discussion about our country’s war policies. And that’s really dangerous. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/78 "2005-11-12T16:03:35Z")
Expanding the point a bit further, in response to **mag** suggestion that we withold our criticism of The Leader until the troops come home… Given the aforementioned “scoundrel”, why should he? His position as C-in-C is such that he can keep our troops in harm’s way pretty much indefinitely. Unless someone rises up to stop him, of course, but how is that too be done without criticizing? “My fellow Americans, The Leader’s vision, wisdom, and firm, decisive leadership has resulted in a perfect world, in all respects a paragon of harmony, a harmony made manifest and guided by the luminous intelligence of The Leader. I propose that we impeach The Leader at once, as a gesture of boundless gratitude for a job well done, and to ensure his divine wisdom is not further taxed on behalf of a nation too much in his debt. Let him toddle off to Crawford for a brisk round of brush clearing, with the thanks of a grateful nation. Tomorrow…” A bit impractical, I should think. And so should you. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/79 "2005-11-12T16:28:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Expanding the point a bit further, in response to **mag** suggestion that we withold our criticism of The Leader until the troops come home… > > Given the aforementioned “scoundrel”, why should he? His position as C-in-C is such that he can keep our troops in harm’s way pretty much indefinitely. Unless someone rises up to stop him, of course, but how is that too be done without criticizing? Well, first we had a war in Afghanistan to “stop terror”. In the middle of that, Bush diverted troops to Iraq to “stop terror” and because of WMD. We haven’t stopped terror and never found WMD (because there were none). Lately there has been sabre rattling against Syria, for hiding the WMD that don’t exist, and talk about Iran. All part of the never ending global war on terror. I don’t see any of it ending. Add to this, on the one hand we are told we must hang on until we win, and on the other hand, we are told this is an ongoing “crusade” in which there is no final victory (both versions from Bush himself). So, if he has his way, the troops will never come home. Practically everything he does, is justified by 9/11 and the war HE started. He needs war. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/80 "2005-11-12T16:38:37Z")
George Bush knows exactly what he’s doing. He’s lying. And he knows that some people will believe any lie he tells as long as he keep choosing to tell it. Bush has made sure to keep his real base happy (more tax cuts for the wealthy are being planned) and the rest are just sheep who will do whatever they’re told. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676.md?page=5)