# Bush attacks critics claim pre-war intel was manipulated. Huge balls or delusional? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676 "2005-11-12T03:58:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/81 "2005-11-12T16:42:55Z")
And then, of course, there is the underlying delusion: the Bushiviks delusion that what has failed so far is merely a matter of public comprehension: “What we have here is a failure to communicate!”. Hence, the public relations offensive, founded on the utterly charming notion that all Das Goober needs to do is explain himself more clearly, and all of this will simply go _poof!_. Karl: Mr. President, you should be advised that a small demonstration is marching towards Washington… DasG: How small, Karl Karl: Couple hundred thousand, tops. No biggy, we just haven’t communicated our talking points as well as we should. But we’re taking steps to… DasG: Those guys on TV, there, Karl? What are they carrying? Karl: Appears to be torches and pitchforks, sir. Night agriculture, that’s probably the reason. Perhaps planning on a surprise Rose Garden… DasG: Then why the ropes, Karl? Karl: Big, heavy rose bushes, sir. We thought it might be best if your next speech were before a slightly less partisan audience, sir, so we have contacted a VFW in Fort Worth… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/82 "2005-11-12T16:58:52Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Yes innocent Iraqi’s are being killed by American troops. When an innocent civilian is accidently killed in a war it is tragic but it is not murder. When some crazy bastard blows himself up taking many of his fellow countryman with him, that’s murder. That sounds remarkably like “terrorist is what the big army calls the little army”. We kill innocents, it’s not our fault; _they_ kill innocents, and they’re murderous bastards. If the war is unjustified, then all killings commited in that war are murder, whether or not you wear a uniform. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > I was around during Vietnam and I honor those that had the courage to not go and faced the consequences of that choice. \*\*I honor those who saw going as fulfilling their duty to their country and risked their lives for that conviction. \*\* I don’t. By going, they prolonged the war and got more people killed. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > I feel for the innocent Iraqis who suffer but they are not the only victems of this war. I also feel for the tousands of American families who suffer because of this war. This statement is incredibly arrogant. The conquerers _are not the victims_. Any pain and death Americans feel in this affair are self inflicted. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > I remember soilders coming home from Vietnam and being spit on self righteous jackasses. I had hoped we were beyond that kind of crap. Evidently not. Did that ever _really_ happen ? It sounds like an urban myth to me, or there would be more stories about spitting hippies being sent to the hospital. > [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@GIGObuster](#): > > > > :rolleyes: > > > > Some of the soldiers in the link are going to jail precisely to not go to Iraq, > > Then those aren’t the soldiers Der Trihs is talking about, are they. If only all your other troops had the balls to do the same. Precisely; the ones doing the killing are the ones commiting murder; the ones who aren’t killing…aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/83 "2005-11-12T17:44:39Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Did that ever really happen ? It sounds like an urban myth to me, or there would be more stories about spitting hippies being sent to the hospital. It happened. It has been testified on both the SDMB and on Fathom by men to whom it happened. The attempt to pretend that it did not happen was the result of some really sloppy methodology by a couple of guys who set out to “debunk” it as legend. They did not actually make the attempt to determine whether it happened. As to spitting hippies sent to hospitals, I have had several of those stories related to me, as well. I’m sorry, but when one’s righteous indignation about an event compels one to make blanket statements about those who differ, one tends to wind up looking just like those opposed. I see little difference between your expressed opinions and the opinions of the Far Right regarding “Muslim terrorists” or the “gay agenda” or any number of other topics in which their “f’r us or ag’in’ us” attitude is expressed in absolute terms. You are free to pursue your logic to whatever end you wish, but when you find yourself making blanket condemnations, just note whose bed you are sharing under the blanket. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/84 "2005-11-12T18:01:22Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > So, does it applies in all situations? If say, it’s proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that the war is waged only because Bush wants to confiscates the Iraki oil fields and kill as many Iraki babies as possible in the process, is saying that the war is unjust still a bad thing? Is encouraging the ennemy still a bad thing? I’m still curious what criteria you would use to decide whether a war was just or not. But to respond to your hypothetical: if that were factually the case, we should petition congress to stop/withdraw funds and/or begin impeachment proceedings. If specific soldiers committed specific atrocities they should be punished according to the law. > [@clairobscur](#): > > If the war is actually unjust, is criticizing the president still a bad thing? It depends if it is factually unjust or merely considered unjust by some. I’d bet that every war is considered unjust by some, but that doesn’t make it so. > [@clairobscur](#): > > Is undercutting the troop’s effort still a bad thing? Is encouraging the ennemy still a bad thing? Is shooting at american soldiers (for an american citizen) still a bad thing? Unless by “undercutting” the troops’ efforts you mean bringing them home, yes, it is a horrible thing. We sent them to a dangerous place. We owe them full support while they are there. Again, any transgressions should be dealt with swiftly and fully. > [@clairobscur](#): > > I think that if a war is unjust it’s a good thing. And how are you going to determine whether or not the war is unjust? By rolling a dice? By believing whatever the administration is saying? Logically you’re going to follow your best judgment. So, IMO, if you believe the war is unjust, it ensues that not only criticizing the government isn’t a bad thing, even if (or maybe especially if) it undercuts the troops, but at the contrary a moral duty. But, again, what determines if the war is unjust? And how do you think that it is justifiable to send a twenty-year-old kid into a war zone and then undercut his efforts while he is there? And then to say that him being shot is a good thing? Even assuming you are correct in that this hypothetical war is unjust, do you really think it is right to punish that kid for following orders? I think that is cheap and cowardly. If the war is unjust (factually) then the people who should pay are those who sent him there. I think the only morally defensible position for the sentiments you express is to be against all wars at all times. Then, I’d say, you would be able to rightly criticize troops for being part of the war machine. But if you believe that war can be necessary and good, then you agree that we need to have an effective fighting force. And if you believe that, then you should uunderstand that it is not—and cannot be—the business of troops to weigh in on the justness or unjustness of any particular war. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/85 "2005-11-12T18:03:42Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > If the are _over there_ killing Iraqis, I really don’t care if they oppose the war. I’d put a bullet in my own head before I murdered someone for Bush, and that’s what they are doing. It sounds like you could make the world a better place by simply enlisting. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/86 "2005-11-12T18:05:24Z")
I’m getting real tired of the same pro war and pro Bush “talking points” coming up over and over ad nauseum. The “facts” used to justify the war WERE cooked and manipulated, by Bush and Cheney. How many times, and in how many separate threads must I and so many other people keep citing and directly quoting the news reports, official reports, the flipflop changes in “rationales for war”, and the constant self contradictions by Bush? When will the people who keep dredging up the same “points” just stop and read the original reports for themselves? When will people look at the disconnects between Bush’s claims and speeches (very well documented for the looking) and compare them with reality? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/87 "2005-11-12T18:16:14Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It sounds like you could make the world a better place by simply enlisting. A pro war person wants me dead ? Why am I not surprised ? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/88 "2005-11-12T18:20:36Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I’m getting real tired of the same pro war and pro Bush “talking points” coming up over and over ad nauseum. ‘A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth.’ ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/89 "2005-11-12T18:31:36Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Nope. Your understanding is correct. > [@SteveG1](#): > > The phase 1 investigation itself was manipulated - they were only chartered and allowed to look at specific things, and were not allowed to examine other things (such as the disparities between the actual reports and the spin which ignored or doctored the final “data” that was sold to the USA amd tne UN). I think that this first “investigation” was meant to put all the blame on the intelligence community and exhonerate the administration. Thanks. Can I have a cite? Not because I want to argue, mind you, but rather because I’d like to have an official, trustworthy reference to point to when it comes up again. And you know it will… ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/90 "2005-11-12T18:31:54Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > With all that, maybe you shouldn’t have sent him over to Iraq then, should you? Perhaps you should be the one experiencing nights of fear, sadness, etc. You sent the kid over there to possibly die, but feel you should be able to sleep easy because you refuse to now rethink that decision or admit you were wrong. What makes you think that I sent anyone anywhere? If you think that I am a fan of Bush, or voted for him (either time), or that I advocated going to Iraq, you’d be wrong on all accounts. I simply do not buy that this war is necessarily unjust or unwise. I do think that the efforts to keep the peace have been bothched to a large degree. And to someone’s point earlier, I think that not securiing the areas that were known to have weapons was inexcusable. The question right now is not, “should we have gone to war?”. The question is: we have 150k troops in Iraq, what should we do with them—based on the situation right now? In the meantime, young men and women are in harm’s way and I don’t think that any of us should do anything that might encourage the enemy or make them less safe. Obviously, not all agree. But this thread has been instructive in one particular regard. **Der Trihs** and others have proven that it is a lie that everyone supports our troops. That there are those on the left who don’t just oppose the war or The President, but the young men and women who are serving their country. I commended **Der Trihs** for his honesty and the light it provides. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/91 "2005-11-12T18:32:01Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > ‘A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth.’ The PIPA Report nailed it. People would rather keep going down the same path to destruction, ignore all the evidence, and (yeah I’m gonna say this) kill more thousands of people than change their views. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/92 "2005-11-12T18:40:44Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > A pro war person wants me dead ? Why am I not surprised ? Heavens no! I much prefer having you around to hold up as a shining example of the hate-filled left. Please, stay healthy. In fact, if I were a wealthy person I’d give you your own radio show. The more people are aware that the extreme left is filled with such “progressive” thoughts the better it will be for everyone. I was merely making an observation: like when you flush your toilet there is less shit in your house, and therefore, it’s a better place. But PLEASE, stay healthy. Write books. Let as many people as possible know how you feel. It helps put to rest the lie that “Hey, we all support the troops, we just don’t support Bush or the war.” Take vitamins. Get plenty of rest. Exercise regularly. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/93 "2005-11-12T18:44:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But this thread has been instructive in one particular regard. **Der Trihs** and others have proven that it is a lie that everyone supports our troops. That there are those on the left who don’t just oppose the war or The President, but the young men and women who are serving their country. I commended **Der Trihs** for his honesty and the light it provides. “On the left” ? What about the right wing government that consistently screws the troops ? Insufficient armor, bait and switch with bonuses, tours extended without notice… I may not “support the troops”, but I’m not actively trying to harm them - Bush and friends are. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/94 "2005-11-12T18:46:11Z")
Which is all very well, **magellan01** , but your initial comment was > [@](#): > > It sounds like you could make the world a better place by simply enlisting. which is much too close to wishing death (or harm) on another poster to be appropriate in this Forum. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/95 "2005-11-12T18:46:45Z")
> [@Digital Stimulus](#): > > Thanks. Can I have a cite? Not because I want to argue, mind you, but rather because I’d like to have an official, trustworthy reference to point to when it comes up again. And you know it will… > [@Gen Wesley Clark](#): > > During an interview on Fox News (of all places): > Well, I think he, ah, there’s a lot to answer for because the intelligence that was available was hyped. I was one of many people who had seen previous intelligence that said the best judgment of the intelligence community was there might be weapons of mass destruction, some materials were unaccounted for. But the talk about mushroom clouds that Secretary Cheney was certain they were going to get a nuclear device fairly soon and so forth; it was irresponsible, it was ungrounded in the facts and the Congress that voted on the resolution never had the chance to see all the dissenting opinions within the intelligence community so I think there’s a lot to be looked at here. I think strategically, though, we can see now, four years after 9/11, that going into Iraq in a way to fight the war on terror was a strategic blunder. … They never looked at whether the administration distorted the information that was available in its approach to the public and they specifically said they weren’t authorized to do that. That’s what has to be looked at by this \ Senate committee and they haven’t done so. > [@Washington Post](#): > > Washington Post Staff Writers > Saturday, November 12, 2005; Page A01 > > President Bush and his national security adviser have answered critics of the Iraq war in recent days with a two-pronged argument: that Congress saw the same intelligence the administration did before the war, and that independent commissions have determined that the administration did not misrepresent the intelligence. Neither assertion is wholly accurate. But Bush and his aides had access to much more voluminous intelligence information than did lawmakers, who were dependent on the administration to provide the material. And the commissions cited by officials, though concluding that the administration did not pressure intelligence analysts to change their conclusions, were not authorized to determine whether the administration exaggerated or distorted those conclusions. > National security adviser Stephen J. Hadley, briefing reporters Thursday, countered “the notion that somehow this administration manipulated the intelligence.” He said that “those people who have looked at that issue, some committees on the Hill in Congress, and also the Silberman-Robb Commission, have concluded it did not happen.” > But the only committee investigating the matter in Congress, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, has not yet done its inquiry into whether officials mischaracterized intelligence by omitting caveats and dissenting opinions. And Judge Laurence H. Silberman, chairman of Bush’s commission on weapons of mass destruction, said in releasing his report on March 31, 2005: “Our executive order did not direct us to deal with the use of intelligence by policymakers, and all of us were agreed that that was not part of our inquiry.” … In addition, there were doubts within the intelligence community not included in the NIE. And even the doubts expressed in the NIE could not be used publicly by members of Congress because the classified information had not been cleared for release. For further reading, I suggest you really pay attention to the other cites that I posted in the pit, in the “Is our freedom on its last legs” thread, the original CIA reports, and the Downing Street Memo. The info being given out was deliberately cooked. Afterwards, the “investigations” were a sham that attempted to blame the intelligence community for the spin that was later put in through deliberate alteration and ommission. The Phase 1 “investigation” was told what they would be “allowed” to look at, and were directed NOT to look at where the real problem is. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/96 "2005-11-12T18:55:30Z")
I’m genuinely confused by **magellan** ’s “write your congressmen, but don’t protest publically” idea. We write our congressmen, and if they ignore us, we vote them out. Which could take up to six years, if we’re talking about Senators. But only two if it’s a Representative! How many more troops are going to die between now and 2011, if we follow your advice, **magellan**? I’m also dumbfounded by your insistence that protests at home make _more_ enemies for us, rather than less. Especially in light of your mention of John Adams defending an English soldier against a murder charge! Can you not understand how this exact same scenario applies to our current conflict? If you were invaded and conquered by a foreign army, if your friends and neighbors and family members were being grabbed off the streets, whisked away to secret prisons where they were tortured, raped, and murdered, you would fight back against them, right? Now, you hear that your enemies citizens are outraged at the actions of their military and leadership, and are staging protests and taking to the streets to protest the way your people are being treated. Would that make you hate them _more_? You would, in that situation, rather hear that your enemey’s citizens don’t give a shit, or even actively support what’s happening to you? I doubt that very much: such information would drive most people to even greater acts of violence or barbarity. Yeah, there are some people on the left who don’t support the troops like **Der Trihs**. This shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone. The thing to remember is that there are people on the right who don’t support the troops, either. One of them is George Bush. Of the two, which do you think is going to get the most troops killed? You’ve used this strawman several times in this thread, and I doubt you’ll stop using it any time soon, but the people who protest this war support the troops every bit as much as you do. Most of them, anyway. That’s why they’re protesting the war: because they see it is as the best way to prevent more troops from dying. Pretending otherwise does nothing but destroy your own credibility. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/97 "2005-11-12T18:59:56Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yeah, there are some people on the left who don’t support the troops like **Der Trihs**. This shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone. The thing to remember is that there are people on the right who don’t support the troops, either. One of them is George Bush. Of the two, which do you think is going to get the most troops killed? I’d like to point out that while I neither support nor approve of the troops, I _do_ want them out of Iraq; that will save more of them than any amount of cheering them on. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/98 "2005-11-12T19:01:17Z")
**Left Hand of Dorkness, elucidator** : Yes, yes, yes. There is much lacking in what I offered. I do not propose to have all the answers. But the point I was really trying to make is that we owe support to our men and women in uniform once they are in the field of battle. On this I am firm and unapologetic. I think it falls to us to find a way to voice our opposition in a way that doesn’t either cause them more anxiety or encourage their enemies—even inadvertently. That responsibility lies on us. If the right thing to dio is to bring troops home, I simply ask that that case be made on the realities of the present situation, not on rehashing history. Because unless you have a time machine, it is moot. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/99 "2005-11-12T19:05:12Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > I’d like to point out that while I neither support nor approve of the troops, I _do_ want them out of Iraq; that will save more of them than any amount of cheering them on. What? Why not just wish them killed? That way they’ll be fewer of them to fight in the next war you might object to. Come on, **Der Trihs** , don’t let me down now. I have great hopes for you. I’ve already been sharing your “progressive” thoughts with others in cyber space. The light has been sent forth. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676/100 "2005-11-12T19:06:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yeah, there are some people on the left who don’t support the troops like **Der Trihs**. This shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone. The thing to remember is that there are people on the right who don’t support the troops, either. One of them is George Bush. Of the two, which do you think is going to get the most troops killed? > > You’ve used this strawman several times in this thread, and I doubt you’ll stop using it any time soon, but the people who protest this war support the troops every bit as much as you do. Most of them, anyway. That’s why they’re protesting the war: because they see it is as the best way to prevent more troops from dying. Pretending otherwise does nothing but destroy your own credibility. Well said. I oppose the war AND support the soldiers. There is no cognitive disconnect involved. To send soldiers off to fight Bush’s “private adventure”, to send them in poorly equipped, to willfully deny them the armor that the contractor has stated was Never Requested, to strip their benefits and medical/stress treatment, to offer bonuess and then “reinterpret” regulations to deny what was pronised, and hold them captive with a back door draft, to hold a dog and pony show with canned questions and responses (which Bush couldn’t even follow with a script) is NOT SUPPORT. To praise and defend the man who did this to them is NOT SUPPORT. To ask why OUR soldiers are being sent over there for a lie is support. To expect that they be treated fairly and honestly, to be willing to tell them the truth is support. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-attacks-critics-claim-pre-war-intel-was-manipulated-huge-balls-or-delusional/330676.md?page=6)