# Bush baiting aside what kind of leader is Venezuela's Chavez? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 20, 2006, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090 "2006-03-20T04:11:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090/1 "2006-03-20T04:11:03Z")
Productive and honest? Corrupt? Fair? Authoritarian? Objectively, how is he doing in terms of leading his country and providing good governance? ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090/2 "2006-03-20T04:16:32Z")
I don’t know much about him, but there aren’t many who claim he was not elected fairly. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090/3 "2006-03-20T05:50:44Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Productive and honest? Hard to complain when the opposition predicted a while ago that oil production was going to be mishandled by him. They were wrong. The oposition also did not convince me Chavez was dishonest when I caught them attempting to twist the Exit Polls to yet again attempt to overtrow the government (it was so pathetic even Carter lost patience with them). > [@](#): > > Corrupt? With more time and power it is always possible in Latin America. > [@](#): > > Fair? I can report that even after the coup the big private newspapers and TV channels that supported the overthrow of a democratically elected president are still publishing and broadcasting. (Of course, they are screaming that new laws directed at what they did during the coup are unfair) > [@](#): > > Authoritarian? After what the opposition (the well-to-do really) attempted to do I would understand Chavez if he goes hard on the opposition, but I would not approve, as always my democratic leanings tell me that would be the end of him, so far I have seen reports that local police is harassing and threatening specific members of the opposition and there are suspicious killings from authorities that are not being investigated properly according to Human Rights Watch. [http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/18/venezu12258.htm](http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/18/venezu12258.htm) > [@](#): > > Objectively, how is he doing in terms of leading his country and providing good governance? Hard to be objective on this, the sad reality is that the coup and elections discredited the mainstream (conservative) media in Venezuela and the mainstream in the USA continues to rely on them AFAIK. Although in favor of Chavez, I have found Venezuelan Analysis to be more reliable so far: > **[Human Rights In Venezuela—Who Is Getting the Story Wrong?](https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/1660?artno=1691)** > > In recent years, mainstream media outlets have seized on the State Department's Human Rights report to paint a picture of Venezuela under Orwellian levels of government control, where freedom of the press and the right of association are rarely... > [@](#): > > The 2005 [Unided States] Report [on Venezuela] > > The truth is, this year’s State Department Human Rights Report is actually quite favorable to Venezuela in most categories. > > Here’s what the Bush Administration had to say about peaceful association: “The law provides for freedom of assembly, and the government generally respected this right in practice.” > > Press Freedoms? “Print and electronic media were independent.” > > Academia? “There were no government restrictions on the Internet or academic freedom.” > > The much-maligned elections processes? “The law provides citizens with the right to change their government peacefully, and citizens exercised this right through periodic elections held on the basis of universal suffrage.[5]” > > These points were mentioned, but not emphasized, in this year’s report. This is significant because a general clean bill of health becomes overshadowed by a laundry list of regional, situational or otherwise anecdotal and unsourced grievances. > > The two major areas where the U.S. really digs in to human rights violations in Venezuela were (irony alert!) detainee abuses and wiretapping without a warrant. As Lily Tomlin once said, “No matter how cynical I get, it’s impossible to keep up.” Yes, the Venezuelan prisons are a brutal mess, and police corruption remains a huge problem throughout the country. But these systemic problems go back generations. It’s responsible and fair for the State Department to point them out, but in a context-challenged media environment, the implication that this is somehow unique to the Chavez administration is one even the most fervent opposition member would not make with a straight face. > > It’s also important to note that the very week that the State Department praised academic freedom in Venezuela, a team of FBI and Los Angeles marshals paid an intimidating visit to a Venezuelan-American professor in California, interrogating him and his students about his political beliefs and association with the Venezuelan government.[6] > > Implications of the Report > > Clearly, the State Department Report on Human Rights Practices in Venezuela is wildly influential. As we’ve discussed, it forms the basis for press coverage—and therefore American public and policymakers’ impressions—of the country. It is also used as a tool for U.S. politicians to advance their own agenda in the region. In recent weeks, the reports have been an excuse Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to advocate a policy of isolation for Venezuela in the Americas.[7] Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld even went so far as to make a ludicrous comparison between President Chavez and Adolf Hitler.[8] > > Just this week, the House Subcommittee on Western Hemisphere will vote on a resolution by Congressman Connie Mack (R-FL), who has taken statements from past reports to condemn “Hugo Chavez’s ever growing anti-democratic actions” and has sought to finance opposition movements in Venezuela.[9] The resolution is riddled with inaccurate information, much of it gleaned from de-contextualized allegations made in past reports, but also from sloppy press coverage of the documents. The truth IMO is between the Human rights report and the Venezuelan Analysis. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090/4 "2006-03-20T12:09:30Z")
As to the title question, from here (pretty close) it looks like the answer is “populist nationalist” – he whips up the masses telling them what they want to hear and making a big show of socking it to The Man. There is no sign (yet, as **GIGObuster** points out) of major personal corruption. He’s not a “dictator”, he’s more like a rework of the old-style Political Boss – he, or if you will, the “movement” created around him, is lawfully elected and operating, but is unchecked. The opposition, as it was, sat out the last elections so _every_ branch of government is clean-sweep Chavista. That is not healthy, long term, because it makes it easy to feel entitled to make your will the law. Something’s illegal/unconstitutional? Just pass an amendment overnight! Something’s unfair to someone? So what, if it’s in the name of the People, go ahead and do it! There are already signs of this happening at various levels as per the various reports. A credible opposition in needed, but the establishment political parties and the social elites over the prior 30 years did a splendid job of thoroughly disgracing themselves and anything that sounds like “moderate” or “conservative” social/political/economic policy, through corruption, mismanagement and the classic strategy of talking about “democracy” and “free enterprise”… but meaning it for _themselves, not_ for the people at large. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090/5 "2006-03-20T15:15:52Z")
One must of course mention that Venezuela is awash with extra cash from the high petroleum prices… and that helped Chavez a lot. Any vaunted prosperity might in fact just be petro dollars helping kick up the economy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090/6 "2006-03-20T17:37:18Z")
Earlier threads discussing Chavez: > **[The latest CIA coup, or Let's Learn about Venezuela](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=198121)** > > Sorry about the cutesie title. Trying to get your attention and all. A few of you might have read a previous thread in which I contended that the corporate media do not keep us well informed on foreign relations issues. I have also posted a thread... > **[Will Chavez survive Sunday's recall election in Venezuela?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=270999)** > > The recall referendum to oust Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is set for this Sunday, August 15. Everything I’ve heard or read on this says Chavez is widely popular and the referendum will fail. Even polling firms employed by the opposition... > **[Are Chavez' policies in Venezuela a good model for developing countries?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=310630)** > > In The Nation, 3/24/05, Christian Parenti has an interesting article assessing the record to date of the government of President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela. http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050411&s=parenti He has survived a coup attempt... > **[Robertson: "Will no one rid me of this turbulent king?"](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=331690)** > > On Monday, 7/22/05, on the 700 Club, televangelist Pat Robertson called for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez – http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/23/robertson.chavez.1534/index.html: I heard a spokesman for Robertson on the radio... > **[Implications/aftermath of Venezuelan election](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=348110)** > > In yesterday’s parliamentary elections in Venezuela, President Hugo Chavez’ Fifth Republic Movement won an overwhelming majority – more than 2/3 of the seats, enough to change the constitution to allow Chavez to stand for a third term next year, if... ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090/7 "2006-04-03T16:38:56Z")
NPR’s “Morning Edition” had a story today about how Chavez is now using the boogeyman of a U.S. invasion to militarize Venezuelan society, boost public support for himself, and divert attention from other, more pressing social problems (crime, corruption, unemployment, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090/8 "2006-04-03T19:17:11Z")
In other words, he’s stealing a page from the Bush playbook? ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090/9 "2006-04-03T19:19:11Z")
The most recent _National Geographic_ had a full story on Chavez. It was a very interesting read. As far as “corrupt,” how’s this: one of his main initiatives is aimed at relieving the traditional landholders of their ranches and farms. This is not shocking; redistribution of land is pretty standard Marxist procedure. However, here’s a glimpse of his sneakiness: he says repeatedly that if the landowners can come up with a copy of their original 1821 deed (1821 being the time when Venezuela as well as most of NW South America became independent), they can fight the reposession in court. Only problem? The then-new Venezuelan government didn’t get around to issuing paper property deeds until the 1850s. Nobody will be able to produce those documents because they don’t exist, and Chavez knows this. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090/10 "2006-04-03T19:46:20Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > As to the title question, from here (pretty close) it looks like the answer is “populist nationalist” – he whips up the masses telling them what they want to hear and making a big show of socking it to The Man. There is no sign (yet, as **GIGObuster** points out) of major personal corruption. > > He’s not a “dictator”, he’s more like a rework of the old-style Political Boss – he, or if you will, the “movement” created around him, is lawfully elected and operating, but is unchecked. The opposition, as it was, sat out the last elections so _every_ branch of government is clean-sweep Chavista. That is not healthy, long term, because it makes it easy to feel entitled to make your will the law. Something’s illegal/unconstitutional? Just pass an amendment overnight! Something’s unfair to someone? So what, if it’s in the name of the People, go ahead and do it! There are already signs of this happening at various levels as per the various reports. I’m not the first one to make this comparison but, to me, Chavez is very much like a Latin American version of [Huey Long](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huey_Long). Like Long, he’s a colorful (some would say clownish) personality whose leadership style is a mix of leftwing populism, rich-baiting, and–disturbingly–authoritarianism. Unfortunately for him, I also think there’s a good chance Chavez will have the same fate as “the Kingfish.” > [@Elendil's Heir](#): > > NPR’s “Morning Edition” had a story today about how Chavez is now using the boogeyman of a U.S. invasion to militarize Venezuelan society, boost public support for himself, and divert attention from other, more pressing social problems (crime, corruption, unemployment, etc.). Well, the U.S. has done a lot to play into his hands. At worst, he’s a minor irritant. However, for political reasons (i.e., appeal to the anti-Castro vote in Florida) the Bush Administration apparently sees fit to keep scratching and picking at it so it gets worse. If they keep it up, it will turn into a gaping wound that Bush’s successor will likely have to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090/11 "2006-04-04T00:57:39Z")
> [@OneCentStamp](#): > > As far as “corrupt,” how’s this: one of his main initiatives is aimed at relieving the traditional landholders of their ranches and farms. This is not shocking; redistribution of land is pretty standard Marxist procedure. Actually, that’s more characteristic of “distributism.” See this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=344179](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=344179) Most self-identified Marxist governments\* want to “socialize,” i.e., nationalize, the land, rather than parcel it out in smallholdings. > [@OneCentStamp](#): > > However, here’s a glimpse of his sneakiness: he says repeatedly that if the landowners can come up with a copy of their original 1821 deed (1821 being the time when Venezuela as well as most of NW South America became independent), they can fight the reposession in court. > > Only problem? The then-new Venezuelan government didn’t get around to issuing paper property deeds until the 1850s. Nobody will be able to produce those documents because they don’t exist, and Chavez knows this. Isn’t it possible some landowners might come up with title deeds predating independence, e.g., land grants from the Spanish crown? \*Not including Chavez’ – he calls himself a “Bolivarian,” whatever that might be. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090/12 "2006-04-04T06:40:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > …\*Not including Chavez’ – he calls himself a “Bolivarian,” whatever that might be. > [@](#): > > [Bolivarianism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivarianism), from Wikipedia > > …People who have called themselves bolivarianos claim to follow the general ideology expressed in Bolívar’s texts such as the Carta de Jamaica and the Discurso de Angostura. Some of Bolívar’s ideas include forming a union of Latin American countries, providing public education, and enforcing sovereignty to fight against foreign invasion, which has been interpreted to include economic domination by foreign powers. An example of such a union was Gran Colombia, a block of countries consisting of Venezuela, Colombia, Peru, Bolivia, and Ecuador… CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090/13 "2006-04-04T07:02:27Z")
An interesting read from FAIR, this article was first published in the USA and now appears in Venezuelan Analisys: > **[The Op-Ed Assassination of Hugo Chávez](https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/1614?artno=1670)** > > U.S. op-ed pages' collective derision of the Chávez government reveals profound contradictions within the commercial press. While editorial boards parrot official U.S. rhetoric about "democracy promotion" abroad, they have refused to provide space... > [@](#): > > After televangelist Pat Robertson first publicly called for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez Frias (700 Club, 8/22/05), the editors of several major U.S. newspapers were quick to denounce his outrageous incitement to violence. However, in criticizing the conservative televangelist, the U.S. prestige press overlooked its own highly antagonistic treatment of Venezuela’s president, which has surely contributed to the heated political climate in which Robertson makes such threats. > > Even so-called “moderate” columnists have contributed to the deterioration of U.S.-Venezuela relations by distorting the Venezuelan government’s domestic and foreign policy record. Robertson may indeed be “just a garden-variety crackpot with friends in high places,” as the New York Times opined (8/25/05), but the televangelist’s erroneous characterization of Venezuela’s president as a “strong-arm dictator” is hardly distinguishable from, say, Thomas Friedman’s contention that Chávez is an “autocrat” (New York Times, 3/27/05). > > In studying the opinion pages of the top 25 circulation newspapers in the United States during the first six months of 2005, Extra! found that 95 percent of the nearly 100 press commentaries that examined Venezuelan politics expressed clear hostility to the country’s democratically elected president. > > … > > U.S. op-ed pages’ collective derision of the Chávez government reveals profound contradictions within the commercial press. While editorial boards parrot official U.S. rhetoric about “democracy promotion” abroad, they have refused to provide space for commentary representing popular opinion in Venezuela. In spite of the fact that recent polls indicate that Chávez’s domestic approval rating has surpassed 70 percent, almost all commentaries about Venezuela represent the views of a small minority of the country, led by a traditional economic elite that has repeatedly attempted to overthrow the government in clearly anti-democratic ways. > > In presenting opinions that are almost exclusively hostile to the Chávez government, U.S. commentaries about Venezuela serve as little more than a campaign of indoctrination against a democratic political project that challenges U.S. political and economic domination of South America. The near-absence of alternative perspectives about Venezuela has prevented U.S. readers from weighing opposing arguments so as to form their own opinions about the Chávez government. The separation of powers bit is really interesting: > [@](#): > > Separation of powers > > In addition to ignoring the Venezuelan government’s popular mandate to carry out its policies, columnists ignore the Venezuelan National Assembly’s role in formulating major political legislation, such as the recent expansion of the Supreme Court and the Law of Social Responsibility in Radio and Television. U.S. op-ed pages erroneously portray Chávez as the author of all such legislation. For example, Oppenheimer (Miami Herald, 6/5/05) contended that Chávez “single-handedly packed his country’s Supreme Court with loyalists.” > > In reality, the expansion of Venezuela’s five-chamber Supreme Court was first debated and then approved by the National Assembly. Pro-government legislators argued that the existing number of judges could not adequately handle their caseloads ([Venezuelanalysis.com](http://Venezuelanalysis.com), 5/27/04). Venezuelan legal expert Carlos Escarrá had pointed out that the court’s constitutional and political chambers were backlogged with thousands of cases ([Venezuelanalysis.com](http://Venezuelanalysis.com), 5/17/04). > > In contrast to the U.S. system, in which the president makes judicial appointments and the Senate votes on whether to confirm them, Venezuela’s National Assembly selects Supreme Court magistrates. In the process of expanding the court, the Assembly selected 17 new justices from a list of 157 candidates pre-selected by a committee made up of representatives of the offices of the human rights ombudsman, the attorney general and the comptroller general (Radio Nacional de Venezuela, 12/13/04). Only in propaganda can this process be described as Chávez having “single-handedly packed” Venezuela’s court. > > Columnists who attack the “stacking” of Venezuela’s Supreme Court also neglect to explain the political context within which the National Assembly voted to increase the number of magistrates. Among U.S. op-ed writers, only the progressive U.S. economist Mark Weisbrot (Miami Herald, 12/20/04) pointed out that Venezuela’s Supreme Court had refused to prosecute military officers who temporarily overthrew the elected government in April 2002. > > In light of the court’s failure to defend the country’s democratic institutions against violent attempts to subvert them, Weisbrot argued that it was not unreasonable for the National Assembly to expand the Court (Christian Science Monitor, 8/11/04). “If you had a Supreme Court in the U.S. that ruled that the people who participated in a military coup could not be prosecuted, Congress would impeach those justices,” Weisbrot contends. > > U.S. commentaries are also inaccurate in asserting that Venezuela’s media law was simply “pushed through” the National Assembly by Chávez. Venezuelan legislators not only deliberated about the law, but also held in-depth studies of other countries’ communication laws in drafting it. Among the communication laws from which legislators drew inspiration were those of England, France, Switzerland, Spain, Argentina, Mexico and the United States. > > When the Republican-controlled U.S. Congress passes a piece of legislation and George W. Bush signs it into law, one scarcely finds U.S. commentaries asserting that the president “pushed” the legislation through a “compliant” congress. However, when Venezuela’s democratically elected National Assembly undertakes a similarly complex process of devising legislation that Chávez subsequently signs into law, U.S. commentaries portray the country’s legislative process as if it were stage-managed by Chávez. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090/14 "2006-04-04T13:23:13Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Some of Bolívar’s ideas include forming a union of Latin American countries, providing public education, and enforcing sovereignty to fight against foreign invasion, which has been interpreted to include economic domination by foreign powers. In that case, it seems like Bolivarianism is finally winning, and not just in Venezuela. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South\_American\_Community\_of\_Nations](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_American_Community_of_Nations) ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090/15 "2006-04-04T13:44:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Isn’t it possible some landowners might come up with title deeds predating independence, e.g., land grants from the Spanish crown? Yes, but he’s specifically excluding those by demanding 1821 deeds; he’s basically saying that anything pre-independence (i.e. given by Spain) is void. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090/16 "2006-04-04T14:08:03Z")
Yeah, that Chavez is a real saint: [Venezuela: Court Orders Trial of Civil Society Leaders](http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/07/08/venezu11299.htm) > [@](#): > > In ordering the trial of four civil society leaders on dubious charges of treason, a Venezuelan court has assented to government persecution of political opponents, Human Rights Watch said today. > > Yesterday, a court in Caracas ordered that María Corina Machado and Alejandro Plaz be tried on treason charges brought by a public prosecutor because their nongovernmental organization, Súmate, accepted foreign funds for a program that encouraged citizen participation in a referendum on President Hugo Chavez’s presidency in 2004. Two other Súmate leaders, Luis Enrique Palacios and Ricardo Estévez, will also be tried on charges of complicity with this alleged crime. > > “The court has given the government a green light to persecute its opponents,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. “Prosecuting people for treason when they engage in legitimate electoral activities is utterly absurd.” > > Machado and Plaz have been charged under article 132 of the Venezuelan Penal Code with “conspiracy to destroy the nation’s republican form of government.” If convicted, they face up to 16 years in prison. [Venezuela: Rights Lawyer Faces Judicial Persecution](http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/04/05/venezu10423.htm) > [@](#): > > The Venezuelan government should immediately halt criminal proceedings opened against one of Latin America’s most prominent human rights lawyers, Human Rights Watch said today. [Venezuela: Curbs on Free Expression Tightened](http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/24/venezu10368.htm) > [@](#): > > Amendments to Venezuela’s Criminal Code that entered into force last week may stifle press criticism of government authorities and restrict the public’s ability to monitor government actions, Human Rights Watch said today. > > “By broadening laws that punish disrespect for government authorities, the Venezuelan government has flouted international human rights principles that protect free expression,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. “While countries across Latin America are moving to repeal such laws, Venezuela has enacted further restrictions on the press that will shield officials from public scrutiny.” > > The amendments extend the scope of existing provisions that **make it a criminal offense to insult or show disrespect for the president and other government authorities.** Venezuela’s measures run counter to a continent-wide trend to repeal such “disrespect” (or “desacato”) laws. In recent years, Argentina, Costa Rica, Paraguay, and Peru have already repealed such laws, and other countries like Chile and Panama are currently considering legislation that would do so. [Venezuela: Chávez Allies Pack Supreme Court](http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/12/14/venezu9864.htm) [[http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/11/30/venezu9754.htm](http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/11/30/venezu9754.htm)]Venezuela: Media Law Undercuts Freedom of Expression]([http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/11/30/venezu9754.htm](http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/11/30/venezu9754.htm)) [Venezuela: Investigate Charges of Abuses Against Protestors](http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/03/05/venezu8072.htm) > [@](#): > > There have been reports of at least nine protesters killed and dozens of people injured—including several journalists—during confrontations with the National Guard over the past week. Under international standards, the intentional use of lethal force by law enforcement officials is permissible only when strictly unavoidable to protect life. > > There have also been numerous allegations of beatings and ill-treatment of civilians detained by the guard and by police. In Zulia State, for example, members of the National Guard detained 23 students and two professors who participated in a protest march on Monday. One of the professors reported to Human Rights Watch that he and five students were beaten by the guard members who detained them. The detainees were released the following day after a judge threw out charges against them. [Investigate Killings of Opposition Supporters in Venezuela](http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/02/19/venezu5323.htm) > [@](#): > > The government of Hugo Chávez should carry out a thorough and impartial investigation into the abduction and murder of four opposition supporters whose bodies were found on February 16 and 17, Human Rights Watch said today. > > The circumstances strongly suggest that these were political killings," said José Miguel Vivanco, executive director of the Americas Division of Human Rights Watch. “The government must launch a prompt and impartial investigation into this vicious crime, and must guarantee the safety of the reported witness to the killings.” etc… See, Geoge Bush is a monster because of the Patriot Act, but Chavez is a hero, because he’s working for ‘the people’. And after all, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090/17 "2006-04-04T14:27:49Z")
Yeah, Huey Long is the first comparison I’d thought of. As for getting out of it next time I think that’ll be pretty straightforward. A simple statement from the next POTUS along the lines of ‘We’re not fond of him but he was freely elected and only the people of Venezuela can remove him.’ will begin to patch things up fairly quickly, I’d think. But that tactic sure wouldn’t work for Bush. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090/18 "2006-04-05T00:11:10Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Yeah, that Chavez is a real saint: > > \ > > See, Geoge Bush is a monster because of the Patriot Act, but Chavez is a hero, because he’s working for ‘the people’. And after all, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette. No, Chavez is no saint and no hero. But from what I can see he’s the best thing that could happen to Venezuela right now . . . if you measure him against the available alternatives. As the Venezuelan people **have,** repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![Mapache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@Mapache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mapache)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090/19 "2006-04-05T00:48:51Z")
Sam Stone says “Yeah, that Chavez is a real saint” Well, no, he isn’t. Tell me Sam, since you are so outraged about “breaking a few eggs” could you please refer us to where you expressed your equal dismay about, say, General Rios-Montt and the SIXTY THOUSAND Guatemalans, mostly Mayan Indians, his American armed and trained soldiers slaughtered, or maybe the series of Salvadoran thugs like Roberto DAubuisson, equally American trained, financed and armed, who murdered ONE HUNDRED TWENTY THOUSAND peasants (and several hundred nuns and priests), usually by torture, or the Contras in Nicaragua or “the Most Catholic General” (Videla) in Argentina- he only killed maybe thirty thousand-or Somoza or Pinochet or … Jeeze, I could go on for the whole page. Reagan loved them all, so did Bush Sr. How do you feel about them, Sam? Nobody in Latin America (except for the rich elites, who make up a tiny micropercentage of the population) has any reason at all to expect anything but destruction to come from any relationship with the United States. Chavez is just the first of what is either going to become a string of justifiably anti-American political leaders, or else anything-but-the-first popular leader to be murdered to preserve what the USA feels is its rightful rule over the dusky savages to the South. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090/20 "2006-04-05T12:48:21Z")
> [@Mapache](#): > > Sam Stone says “Yeah, that Chavez is a real saint” > Well, no, he isn’t. Tell me Sam, since you are so outraged about “breaking a few eggs” > could you please refer us to where you expressed your equal dismay about, say, General Rios-Montt and the SIXTY THOUSAND Guatemalans, mostly Mayan Indians, his American armed and trained soldiers slaughtered, or maybe the series of Salvadoran thugs like Roberto DAubuisson, equally American trained, financed and armed, who murdered ONE HUNDRED TWENTY THOUSAND peasants (and several hundred nuns and priests), usually by torture, or the Contras in Nicaragua or “the Most Catholic General” (Videla) in Argentina- he only killed maybe thirty thousand-or Somoza or Pinochet or … Jeeze, I could go on for the whole page. Reagan loved them all, so did Bush Sr. How do you feel about them, Sam? Chavez, OTOH, for all his heavy-handed behavior and criminal prosecution of opponents, has not yet had anyone shot, and seems to be proving, _pace_ Lenin, that you **can** have a revolution without firing squads! 🙂 Remember also that by Latin American standards – hell, by **U.S.** standards – he would have been perfectly within his rights to have all the plotters and participants of the 2002 coup shot for treason. And for reasons unclear to me, he didn’t. (Which he may yet live to regret . . .) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-baiting-aside-what-kind-of-leader-is-venezuelas-chavez/349090.md?page=2)