# Bush desecrates flag..
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-desecrates-flag/190998
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 26, 2003, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-desecrates-flag/190998 "2003-07-26T00:47:21Z")
**Posts on this page:** 15
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2003, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-desecrates-flag/190998/101 "2003-07-28T18:36:44Z")
… Okay, I’m not pleased, generally, that Clinton, being president, signed the flag. On the other hand, the case could be made that it was political speech. He didn’t try to get that sort of political speech outlawed, so I’m not all that annoyed, it’s not hypocritical.
Again, the members of an army unit signing a flag? It’s speech. “We were here. We served, we died for what this stands for.”
Again, under the amendment Bush favors, it’d be outlawed.
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### Author:  [@towel2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/towel2)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-desecrates-flag/190998/102 "2003-07-28T18:48:15Z")
ooooo let me get out my good pitch forck and torch, it looks like another witch hunt.
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### Author:  [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-desecrates-flag/190998/103 "2003-07-28T19:00:38Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \*
> \*\*But as I noted above, Clinton was _against_ amending the Constitution to ban “desecrating” the flag. \*\*
Ohhh, so that statement was from the **Clinton** White House, not the **G. W. Bush** White House.
Goddammit **Buckner** don’t do that to me. I nearly crapped my pants. For a minute I thought the world as I know it had been turned on its ear.
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### Author:  [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2003, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-desecrates-flag/190998/104 "2003-07-28T19:39:29Z")
I think “relativism” is rearing its ugly head here.
In the real world, there’s nothing wrong for burning or writing on a flag, and there is something wrong with prosecuting someone for doing so.
In the religious world, regarding the flag as something sacred that can descrated is a serious violation of the 2nd Commandment.
In the patriotic world, writing on a flag desecrates it more seriously that imporperly displaying it but less seriously than burning it.
> [@](#):
>
> I love it when Libs jump on things like this. This and 13 words taken out of context in a speech. It makes laughably clear how hot their hatred is and how impotent they are to clash with him on anything of substance.
You do realize, **newcrasher,** that the primary thrust of this thread is _hypocrisy_, don’t you?
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### Author:  [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-desecrates-flag/190998/105 "2003-07-28T20:21:14Z")
It is American tradition (and yes, Americans have some admittedly pretentious flag-related traditions) to dispose of flags that are worn-out or muddied beyond cleansing or otherwise damaged beyond the point that they can be displayed with dignity by burning them.
This burning is generally done, I believe, by placing the flag in a container and burning flag and container together.
Many American protesters, upon feeling that the honor of our nation has been dragged through the mud and shredded and damaged beyond dignity, have expressed this sentiment by burning the flag.
This burning is of course done in public, because the intention is to make a political statement, not to dispose of a piece of worn-out cloth. Note, however, that the underlying motivation here could be characterized as patriotic. It could also be characterized as anti-patriotic, depending on your view of patriotism. Does one say “My country, right or wrong” and remain loyal and uncritical of one’s leaders even when they are embarrassing the fuck out of the nation and ruining its reputation? Or does one take responsibility for the wrongness of one’s country by saying “My country, right or wrong, and current wrong as all get-out, and I think it sucks”?
(There are also people who burn the flag as a way of saying they reject the country and everything that they believe it stands for. Theirs is also a political statement and should also remain legal.)
The funny thing is that if everyone agreed that there was no big deal about burning the American flag, it would lose its value as a shocking political statement and few people would bother doing it.
Anyway, as is the case with most American posters to this thread, I see nothing wrong with Bush signing the flags, and it certainly isn’t illegal; but I note with wry amusement and a sprinkling of minor-league indignation that he is among those who have pushed for a stupid amendment that would make both flag-burning and flag-signing an illegal and punishable act.
God help us if this is the only stupid or inconsistent thing he’s done that sticks in people’s minds though.
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### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2003, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-desecrates-flag/190998/106 "2003-07-28T21:59:37Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Latro \*
> Just a question…
>
> If that’s the rule, what about military flags stating the regiment and past battles??
Battle Streamers aren’t affixed to the flags themselves. They’re affixed to the pole on which the flag is carried.
The United States Armed Forces have distinguishing flags for various units and do not have the names sewn onto the national ensign.
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### Author:  [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-desecrates-flag/190998/107 "2003-07-28T22:38:37Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \*
> \*\*I’d like to point out that I personally (being a non-American) never roll my eyes towards the USA, or her citizens in particular. It’s never a gracious thing to do in my opinion. If I have a position which is contrary to an American’s position on some given thing, I’ll happily state that position as articulately as possible, without resorting (hopefully) to an offensive kinda tone. \*\*
Well I meant the eye roll in a more figurative sense, and also non-Americans when with each other or alone. I know that most folk are polite enough not to be rude to someone’s face like that.
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2003, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-desecrates-flag/190998/108 "2003-07-29T12:07:14Z")
> [@](#):
>
> You do realize, newcrasher, that the primary thrust of this thread is hypocrisy, don’t you?
Assuming that it is -
Those on the Right would be hypocritical if they criticized Clinton for signing the flag, but not Bush.
Those on the Left would be hypocritical if they criticized Bush for signing the flag, but not Clinton.
No one on the Right has criticized Clinton for signing the flag, but not Bush.
**Reeder** (and others on the Left) have criticized Bush for signing the flag, but not Clinton.
Do the math.
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@HomeSlice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HomeSlice)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2003, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-desecrates-flag/190998/109 "2003-07-29T12:28:27Z")
I think i’m more appalled at the fact that our President is giving out autographs.
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### Author:  [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2003, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-desecrates-flag/190998/110 "2003-07-29T12:29:03Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Monty \*
> \*\*Battle Streamers aren’t affixed to the flags themselves. They’re affixed to the pole on which the flag is carried.
>
> The United States Armed Forces have distinguishing flags for various units and do not have the names sewn onto the national ensign. \*\*
So you’re using the old Prussian system with streamers now?
I seem to recall that, during the civil war, units used two flags; the regimental flag (usually the blue one with the eagle) and the national flag (stars and stripes) with unit name + battle honours.
When did that practice change?
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2003, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-desecrates-flag/190998/111 "2003-07-29T12:30:05Z")
Hypocrisy, like all these, is a relative thing, **Shodan**.
Of the two groups, which is the more likely to exploit patriotic fervor in support of thier political agenda?
Take your time, I know you got this one…
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### Author:  [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-desecrates-flag/190998/112 "2003-07-29T12:45:11Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Philster \*
> \*\*He’s signing it for people who want it, not as an act of protest and not to be flown. This differs greatly from true flag disrespect in which people fly it in poor shape, poor weather, poor lighting, etc…or even burn it.
>
> \*\*
So, it’s not what’s done to the flag but the intent or meaning of what’s done to the flag?
Me? I couldn’t care less if he signed a little trinket probably made in Taiwan, or if he signed a real one. I will care if he actually tries to ammend the constitution to prohibit any desecration.
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### Author:  [@ArchEtech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArchEtech)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-desecrates-flag/190998/113 "2003-07-29T15:33:15Z")
Thats like saying that someone who doesn’t hang their flag correctly, or accidently drops it on the gound is “crapping” on this country.
This thread sucks.
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### Author:  [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2003, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-desecrates-flag/190998/114 "2003-07-29T15:42:49Z")
For the record, I’m a registered Republican, Shodan. I’m just real ticked at the party since the Religious Right hijacked it, and trying hard to claim it back. If this means I have to vote for Dean to break their backs, so be it.
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### Author:  [@ArchEtech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArchEtech)
#### Post date: [July 29, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-desecrates-flag/190998/115 "2003-07-29T15:56:51Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by spooje \*
> \*\*So, it’s not what’s done to the flag but the intent or meaning of what’s done to the flag?
>
> Me? I couldn’t care less if he signed a little trinket probably made in Taiwan, or if he signed a real one. I will care if he actually tries to ammend the constitution to prohibit any desecration. \*\*
100% correct. Its one thing to do it specifically to offend, and another to offend by accident. There are always people out there lwaiting to be offended anyway.
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