# Bush did this: will he apologize? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 14, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-did-this-will-he-apologize/255083 "2004-07-14T15:34:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-did-this-will-he-apologize/255083/61 "2004-07-15T07:06:45Z")
> [@Gadfly](#): > > Brutus, **you stated a couple of posts back that going to an Arab country to research their religion was suspicious enough to throw them in jail** and treat them under ‘enemy combatant’ (whatever that means) status. Bolding mine. And yet again, I did not state that. Don’t try to make it sound like going to fucking Afghanistan (not an ‘Arab’ country) or Pakistan (also not Arab) is just the most usual thing in the world for earnest young muslim from Sweden to do. Especially not Afghanistan under the Taliban. ---
**Author:** ![Gadfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gadfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadfly)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-did-this-will-he-apologize/255083/62 "2004-07-15T07:17:24Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Bolding mine. And yet again, I did not state that. Don’t try to make it sound like going to fucking Afghanistan (not an ‘Arab’ country) or Pakistan (also not Arab) is just the most usual thing in the world for earnest young muslim from Sweden to do. Especially not Afghanistan under the Taliban. I never said that it wasn’t the most usual thing to do. But not investigating his visit at all? Using circumstancial evidence entirely as a basis for tossing someone in jail and trampling on their rights? Errors in my nomenclature don’t change the fact that you’re still suggesting that we toss people in jail simply for shaky circumstancial evidence. A couple of weeks ago, I went to Jane and Finch, to do some photography. Horrible area of Toronto, if you’ve ever been there. It’s essentially the closest thing to a ghetto that Toronto has. While I was in the vicinity, (it was dusk as I was walking around) a man in uniform asked me what I was doing. I simply told him the truth - that I wasn’t buying drugs, or in a gang, I was just taking some pictures. Now, being in the area around that time was slightly suspicious. And taking pictures? Why didn’t I just go to High Park? But for some reason, I wasn’t taken in for questioning. ---
**Author:** ![Gadfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gadfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadfly)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-did-this-will-he-apologize/255083/63 "2004-07-15T07:18:42Z")
> [@Gadfly](#): > > I never said that it **wasn’t** the most usual thing to do. Was. I think I need more coffee. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-did-this-will-he-apologize/255083/64 "2004-07-15T10:26:46Z")
> [@The Man With The Golden Gun](#): > > Someone find the guys in Pakistan who sold this guy to the police. They are the ones who belong in Guantanamo. No they do not. Nobody deserves to be locked up without charge and legal support. This is the actions of despots not countries that profess to believing in “freedom” and “justice”. Everyone deserves a basic level of legal protection no matter who or what they’ve done. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-did-this-will-he-apologize/255083/65 "2004-07-15T13:01:53Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > No, but Merijeek did, and he’s who I was responding to: > > That comment was aimed at him, not you. You’ll note that if you read the sentances I wrote, I clearly quite understand that. You jumped on it to attack the comparison, fair enough, but used that to avoid the substantive issue. And I didn’t want Godwin to come in derail things, no matter who was responsible for it. > [@](#): > > And no, that isn’t what I’m saying. You’d be _partly_ responsible for your wifes death. Responsibility isn’t an all-or-nothing thing. That’s not the way our legal system works. Responsibility is, indeed, not an all or nothing thing. But it is also not a zero-sum thing: outcomes don’t have limited amounts of responsibility to go around. If you hire someone to committ an illegal act, you are 100% responsible for that act. And the person who carries it out is ALSO 100% responsible. > [@](#): > > Bush is _partly_ responsible for what happened. He’s not as responsible for this has some are portraying him to be. That’s what I was trying to say. I don’t understand: Bush removed due process, Bush created an extra-legal prison to be outside of all laws, Bush approved methods that are torture by any meaningful definition, and Bush even ordered his lawyers to figure out how to beat the rap. How is he not responsible for all of that? And why doesn’t that make him responsible for the quite predictable outcome that people were held for years without legal recourse and tortured pointlessly throughout? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-did-this-will-he-apologize/255083/66 "2004-07-15T13:35:40Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > That’s not the way our legal system works. How our legal system works isn’t relevant when your discussing how to evaluate the performance of the President. This isn’t a legal matter. > [@Apos](#): > > If you hire someone to committ an illegal act, you are 100% responsible for that act. And the person who carries it out is ALSO 100% responsible. Again, we’re not talking about criminal law here. > [@Apos](#): > > I don’t understand: Bush removed due process, Bush created an extra-legal prison to be outside of all laws, It was my understanding that there had been long-standing plans to have some kind of hearing for the Guantanamo detainees–it’s hardly has clear cut as “removed due process,” especially when you consider that “due process” in the context of foreign nationals captured during a war against a terrorist regime (I’m talking Afghanistan here, not Iraq) is not a clearly defined legal concept. Hell, even after a couple recent SCOTUS decisions it’s _still_ not a clearly defined legal concept. > [@Apos](#): > > Bush approved methods that are torture by any meaningful definition, … Can I see a cite that demonstrates _Bush_, has opposed to somebody that works for Bush, approved the _use_ (as opposed to the legality of) torture? > [@Apos](#): > > Bush even ordered his lawyers to figure out how to beat the rap. I think a more accurate statement is “Bush ordered his lawyers to discern the legality of the interrogation methods he was using.” All acounts I’ve read said that the author of the memo was a respected legal scholar. I don’t think Bush was being irresponsible by trusting him. > [@Apos](#): > > How is he not responsible for all of that? Except where I’ve noted, I’m not disagreeing that he’s responsible for all that. My contention is that being directly responsible for that does not necessarily make him directly responsible for all the abuses that have occured during his administration. > [@Apos](#): > > And why doesn’t that make him responsible for the quite predictable outcome that people were held for years without legal recourse and tortured pointlessly throughout? I disagree that many of the outcomes were “quite predictable.” Was it predictable that a “sell innocent people to the Americans as terrorists” industry would have sprang up? Was it predictable that the military intelligence system wouldn’t have its shit together, and would prove incapable of culling obviously innocent people? Was it predictable that a respected legal scholar asked to write an opinion on interrogation methods would come back with something that appears to be _way_ off base? It’s not this cut-and-dried. Yes, Bush is responsible for what has happened. But not in a “pulling the trigger sense” or even an “ordered the trigger to be pulled” sense. He’s certainly not responsible in a criminal sense. That’s the only point I’m trying to make. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-did-this-will-he-apologize/255083/67 "2004-07-15T13:56:49Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > **lambchops** , thanks for the reasoned response. I pretty much agree with what your saying. I was responding to **Merijeek**. The “Bush is Hitler/the US is Nazi Germany” comparisons are getting more frequent, and I find them really offensive. That’s what I was responding to. Of course it’s offensive. And so is **Brutus** ’s attitude. I’m not nearly stupid enough to think that Bush=Hitler, but I think it requires far more stupidity to believe that a man isn’t culpable because he wasn’t the one who pulled the trigger. Sorry if I made an extreme comparison (and I hope it doesn’t put me into the frothing-mouth **Reeder** camp with some people), but how is that comparison wrong? Seriously. Bullshit-free. From what that dimwit said…how was I wrong? Bush may feel no guilt, but he is culpable. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-did-this-will-he-apologize/255083/68 "2004-07-15T19:21:35Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Anyways, enough from this **qts** fool. I’ll treat that contempt with the remark it deserves. > [@Merijeek](#): > > Were the British stores fakes? Anyone have a site? They most definitely were. [A sample cite.](http://www.guardian.co.uk/gall/0,8542,1208623,00.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-did-this-will-he-apologize/255083.md?page=3)