# Bush Family Values **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 30, 2003, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048 "2003-11-30T12:07:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048/121 "2003-12-02T05:00:36Z")
[here’s BUsh’s](http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/02/bush.dui/index.html) note his admission. Got that cite on Kennedy yet? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048/122 "2003-12-02T05:02:07Z")
**FIrst???** you fuck! we asked 3 mother fucking pages ago and you call **me** a twit? You are really a worthless piece of scum, arent’ you? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048/123 "2003-12-02T05:05:13Z")
Don’t get all irrational, dear. Maybe you should lie down. Some smelling salts, perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048/124 "2003-12-02T05:07:30Z")
[Here’s Cheney’s](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/cheney_doc.html), just to be thorough. Now hozabout that Kennedy cite? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048/125 "2003-12-02T05:10:17Z")
[here’s Cheney’s](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/cheney_doc.html) [here’s one that mentions convictions for both](http://www.sptimes.com/News/110300/news_pf/Worldandnation/Bush_acknowledges_DUI.shtml) that makes **three** proofs offered by me, to your, **zip** ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048/126 "2003-12-02T05:15:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*[Here’s Cheney’s](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/cheney_doc.html), just to be thorough. Now hozabout that Kennedy cite? \*\* The Smoking Gun is not a legitamite cite. Maybe you need smelling salts, too, wuss. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048/127 "2003-12-02T05:16:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*Don’t get all irrational, dear. Maybe you should lie down. Some smelling salts, perhaps? \*\* nah, just an admission or two from you that you made spurious allegations, that **Dio** and I have documented our facts, that you repeatedly have failed to admit that **any** of your ‘folks’ have done anything wrong ever, while falsely accusing us of ‘giving a pass’ to wrongful acts. Bush, Cheney = convicted drunk drivers. Laura Bush, Ted Kennedy, Janklow = folks who’ve killed other people while driving. **wring** = some one who did **not** claim Laura Bush was drunk; some one who provided cites when asked **milroyj** a weaseling toad of a poster who makes false claims about public figures (Kennedy driving drunk), makes false claims about posters (claimed that I claimed Laura Bush was drunk); demands cites from others while continuing to ignore demands for cites for his assertions; etc etc etc. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048/128 "2003-12-02T05:18:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*The Smoking Gun is not a legitamite cite. Maybe you need smelling salts, too, wuss. \*\* apparently you’ve failed to notice the second cite I provided, a news source. and of course, ignoring yet again both the proof about GEorge’s conviction and the repeated requests for cites from you, you schmuck. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048/129 "2003-12-02T05:24:48Z")
Have those smelling salts kicked in yet dear? Apparently not. Some family members/associates may or may not have been convicted of DUI. Still doesn’t make Laura a killer. Shut up, already. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048/130 "2003-12-02T05:38:03Z")
still no cite from you regarding your allegation. you really are worthless. I’ll be linking this thread to any request from you in the future for any proof. YOu’ve repeatedly ignored requests for your assertions, and when I’ve provided **proof** of mine, your handwaving ‘lalalalala I can’t hear you’ is deafening. you really **are** a putz. what a collosal waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048/131 "2003-12-02T05:45:03Z")
I’d like to know why the Smoking Gun is not a legitimate cite? can you show me something they’ve put on their site which is false? Did you notice that they actually have photocopies of the[court docket](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/cheneydwi1.html) and the [police report](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/cheneydwi2.html) or are you going to claim that they just phonied them up? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048/132 "2003-12-02T05:48:20Z")
Awww…it’s no use, **wring**. Some people are just beyond help. And I thought **I** was partisan. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048/133 "2003-12-02T05:50:11Z")
just link this thread **Dio** next time you run into him. I know I will ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048/134 "2003-12-02T06:33:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\*just link this thread **Dio** next time you run into him. I know I will \*\* What’s the point? This thread isn’t much different from all the other threads **milroyj** has posted in. He’s probably trying hard, but when all he’s got to work with is: - a shortage of intellectual horsepower - a lack of honesty - a whining, snivelling personality he can’t really come across as anything other than a completely useless fucking jerk. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048/135 "2003-12-02T06:39:54Z")
it’ll explain to others why I’d not bother. “why didn’t you answer **milroyj’s** demand for a cite?” "['cause I’m still waiting for him to put up or shut up here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4298326#post4298326)😉 ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048/136 "2003-12-02T06:49:56Z")
\ It’s odd, but I remember seeing a preserved newspaper in the Griffith Park Observatory where the headline was some astronomic event I can’t recall. One of the other stories on that same page was a report on the very driving-related incident being bandied around here. Wish I could remember what the headline the Observatory people WANTED you to pay attention to was… \ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048/137 "2003-12-02T07:28:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*It seems that some of you want it both ways, though, e.g. in the Illegal War thread in GD. According to you guys, Clinton **isn’t** a liar because he was never convicted of perjury, but Bush **is** a war criminal because, well, y’all say so. Can’t have it both ways, my friend. \*\* Is Clinton a liar? Well, of course Clinton is a liar! A politician doesn’t _run_ for office, he tunnels his way there, and his tongue is the shovel. He even smiles like a door-to-door Bible salesman. I didn’t vote for him because he was a virgin, I voted for him because my whore has less obvious STDs and running sores than yours! GeeDubya is ignorant, rash, aggressive, and the victim of a wildly exaggerated self-esteem. The bull-headed certainty of his convictions has landed us in the nastiest shitswamp since SE Asia. But he’s not a war criminal. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048/138 "2003-12-02T07:44:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\*hey, **milroyj** would you feel better if we said “accidental killer” - you know, like Kennedy?? > > of course, you seem to completely ignore that nasty technicality that currently [SD (former?) rep Janklow](http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/12/01/janklow.trial.ap/index.html) is being charged with the **crime** of manslaughter after he, to repeat your words, ‘had a car accident’ wherin he ran a stop sign, hit some one and they died. > > that is _exactly_ what Laura Bush did. Apparently, she’s the one in this thread who’s ‘getting a pass’ for her actions - all we’ve been doing is stating the empiracle fact that her actions directly caused the death of some one, \*\* I’m sorry, Wring, but you’ve examined the accident reports from both Janklow and Laura Welch and are prepared to say that the circumstances were exactly identical? That seems unlikely. In this article on Janklow’s accident ([http://www.aberdeennews.com/mld/aberdeennews/news/6563024.htm](http://www.aberdeennews.com/mld/aberdeennews/news/6563024.htm)), there’s the following description of charges that can be leveled in a case where an accident results in death: "Vehicular homicide is the most severe charge in fatal accidents, but alcohol or drugs have to be involved, Deputy Attorney General Bob Mayer said Tuesday. The maximum penalty for vehicular homicide is 15 years in prison and a $15,000 fine. If alcohol is not involved, second-degree manslaughter can be charged if evidence suggests death was caused by recklessness, which is defined as a conscious and unjustifiable disregard of substantial risk, Mayer said. Second-degree manslaughter carries a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison and a $10,000 fine. Careless driving, a misdemeanor punishable by up to 30 days in jail and a $200 fine, also could be charged if there is no evidence of a conscious disregard of risk, Mayer said." Although Laura Welch’s case was not in the same jurisdiction, I suspect the laws are similar in most states. If Laura Welch was never charged, then there was apparently no compelling evidence that suggests a conscious disregard of risk. Calling her a killer is essentially a mean-spirited attack on her spouse, because no one would be fixating on this case and dredging up past tragedies if there wasn’t a chance to point a finger and gloat, “Oh, look, the Bush’s have feet of clay! Laura Bush killed a friend 40 years ago and therefore the Bush family is a festering pit of sin and corruption!” We essentially had the same discussion in the BBQ pit a month and a half ago when Cartooniverse listed the [“Top 11 known arrests/crimes from the family that was supposed to restore dignity…”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=218772) . That OP was just as asinine as the current discussion. Laura Welch’s accident took place 17 years before she even \* met \* Bush and nothing in her biography indicates that it was anything but a tragic incident in an otherwise normal and even laudable life. (Wring – I believe you are a corrections officer – would anything have been gained by charging Laura Welch with manslaughter? Think a few years in jail would have helped her become a model citizen? I mean more so than an advocate of education and literacy First Lady of the US?) And, to get back to the OP, how exactly is Bush responsible for his brother’s actions? As I said in Cartooniverse’s thread, unless we somehow believe that a moral taint runs through families, all we can conclude from Neil Bush’s behavior is that Neil Bush is a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048/139 "2003-12-02T08:05:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Finagle \* > \*\* And, to get back to the OP, how exactly is Bush responsible for his brother’s actions? \*\* I’m guessing here that you didn’t even _read_ the OP. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048/140 "2003-12-02T08:12:54Z")
**Finagle** - the point I made was that each of those persons **ran a stop sign** , hit another vehicle and caused the death of another person by doing so. Each of those elements have been proven. I don’t recall making the claim that the entire incidents were identical, merely that the ‘running of a stop sign, causing the death’ is the same. (in fact, the quote you cited displays exactly that - ‘had a car accident, ran a stop sign, hit a person, that person died’) **milroyj** kept asserting (erroneously) that a car accident wasn’t a crime, running a stop sign wasn’t a crime, yet we see that’s simply not so (which is what I asserted). No, I’m not a corrections officer, but do work w/convicts (25 years and counting). I already acknowledged that times certainly have changed since then, that folks take **both** drunk driving **and** car accidents where some one dies through the fault of another driver, very much more seriously. Is that a good thing? over all, yea, I’d say so. Hopefully, we’re more vigilant in our driving 'cause of it. Do I think that Laura would have been better off? I don’t know, I don’t know her, but I **do** know that the system isn’t set up to simply cater to what the potential defendant would best be served by. There are other concepts such as ‘justice’, ‘victims rights’, and ‘deterance factor’ for other potential defendants. So, the question you pose isn’t, IMHO, and IME, a relevant one. Stating that she is (factually) a killer, may cause folks like **milroyj** to turn purple, but I found it interesting that he absolutely denied that she was at all culpable ‘it was an accident’, while at the same time, calling out for blood on another famous person who got involved in an ‘accident’ where some one died. Compare and contrast that position (“Laura got into an accident” vs. “Kennedy got away with drunk driving” where there is \*\*absolutely no proof \*\* offered up to substantiate the ‘drunk’ part of it), with **Dio/me** who acknowledge that **both** are ‘killers’ in the same sense of the word and offered up proof for assertions made (‘yes, car accidents causing death can be charged criminally;’, “yes, Laura BUsh was driving, ran a stop sign and killed another person”; “yes, Bush was convicted of drunk driving”; “yes, so was Cheney”). I don’t know the guy she killed, so we’ll never know what kind of contribution he might have made. I’ve seen reports that indicate that she’s quite remorseful about the incident, it does indeed appear that she’s done wonderful things w/her life. None of this alter the facts that: 1. She did, in fact, cause the death of another person, even if it was unintentional. 2. Other people in very similar circumstances have been charged with crimes. 3. Much has changed since Laura, George and Dick committed these acts, and that such acts today would likely be treated in a much more harsh manner. (witness Janklow’s prosecution; various drunk driving laws around the country etc.) I don’t recall saying, suggesting that she’s an evil person etc. Just that she did, in fact, cause the death of another person. as did Kennedy. as did Janklow [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-family-values/216048.md?page=8)