# Bush garners unprecedented opposition from government & conservative ranks **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164 "2004-06-13T19:52:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2004, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164/21 "2004-06-15T00:50:06Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Eight political parties? Scheduling the Presidential debates will be a major headache. Ooh, but so much fun to watch! > [@rjung](#): > > On the plus side, it’d make it darn near impossible for any one party to get a majority in Congress, which ought to help in making the politicians actually negotiate with each other. Exactly! What’s more, ideas that are now considered “fringe” ideas will be able to get a fair hearing in the public forum – but they still won’t be enacted as law or policy unless they garner multipartisan support. Consider the following scenario: CONGRESSCRITTER A: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164/22 "2004-06-15T01:01:13Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Eight political parties? Scheduling the Presidential debates will be a major headache. Ooh, but so much fun to watch! > [@rjung](#): > > On the plus side, it’d make it darn near impossible for any one party to get a majority in Congress, which ought to help in making the politicians actually negotiate with each other. Exactly! What’s more, ideas that are now considered “fringe” ideas will be able to get a fair hearing in the public forum – but they still won’t be enacted as law or policy unless they garner multipartisan support. Consider the following scenarios: **IN A TWO-PARTY CONGRESS:** CONGRESSCRITTER A: I’d like to introduce a bill to legalize marijuana. How do you think I should go about it? CONGRESSCRITTER B: You’re joking, right? **IN A MULTI-PARTY CONGRESS:** CONGRESSCRITTER A: I’d like to introduce a bill to legalize marijuana. How do you think I should go about it? CONGRESSCRITTER B: Well, the Libertarians will back it for sure, you don’t even have to ask. Ditto with the Greens. The Constitution Party will be dead against it. So will the America First Party, and probably the Populist Party – it’s a moral issue to all of them. The Business Republicans – well, they’ll at least be open to the idea – in fact, the tobacco companies will jump at the chance to branch into a new product; but there’ll be a lot of negotiation on terms and details and age limits. The Social Democrats will be for it if the new marijuana industry is adequately regulated and taxed . . . No guarantees, but it’s got a shot if you push it hard enough . . . Or substitute your own favorite Issue that Dare Not Speak Its Name – single-payer health care, abolishing Medicare, abolishing the IRS, taxing away all private incomes above $100,000, abolishing NAFTA, expanding NAFTA, paring down the defense establishment, getting government out of education entirely, death penalty for drug dealing, outlawing organized labor, outlawing non-organized labor, etc., etc. All open for discussion. And no one party in a position to call the shots by itself. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2004, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164/23 "2004-06-15T01:59:10Z")
Legal marijuana AND a death penalty for drug dealing? Sounds a little schizo to me. I say take the prescription monpoly out of the hands of doctors and back where it belongs – with the last remaining trustworthy element of society, our children. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164/24 "2004-06-15T02:09:32Z")
> [@Boyo Jim](#): > > Legal marijuana AND a death penalty for drug dealing? Sounds a little schizo to me. Not “AND.” Not even “OR.” Either you’re whooshing me or you’re rather missing the point . . . ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164/25 "2004-06-15T02:38:15Z")
> [@tremorviolet](#): > > Wait, are we being whooshed? That’s _exactly_ the line the neo-cons are taking: … > > [source page](http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/2004/la-na-diplo13jun13,1,1142936.story?coll=la-home-headlines) Wow, **rjung** / Carnak! Not bad at all! ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164/26 "2004-06-16T22:19:19Z")
[Here’s the statement](http://www.diplomatsforchange.com/project/project.html). > [@](#): > > The Bush Administration has shown that it does not grasp these circumstances of the new era, and is not able to rise to the responsibilities of world leadership in either style or substance. I guess that means he didn’t pass. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164/27 "2004-06-16T23:23:35Z")
According to a report on the report by the [BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3810895.stm): > [@](#): > > The former officials have launched their call for change in a presidential election year, but the group is made up of both Democrats and members of Mr Bush’s Republican Party. > > Known critics of the administration were deliberately excluded from it. Read that last sentence again. The statement was made by Bush’s non-enemies. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164/28 "2004-06-17T11:19:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Some conservatives are militarists and/or military veterans. They will hate Bush because he is a draft-dodging coward – running against a genuine war hero. Or they will hate him for changing the rules on soldiers, or the gutting of the VA and Veteran’s benefits. The cost cutting measures being taken by VA Hospitals, and VA Doctors are truly frightening. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164/29 "2004-06-17T14:30:40Z")
> [@Tapioca Dextrin](#): > > According to a report on the report by the [BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3810895.stm): > > Read that last sentence again. The statement was made by Bush’s non-enemies. Think again. “Bush’s [former] non-enemies.” Now, how many smear campaigns can the neocons run before they start to run out of steam? -Joe, honestly wondering ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164/30 "2004-06-17T21:09:45Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > ,Now, how many smear campaigns can the neocons run before they start to run out of steam? > > -Joe, honestly wondering I thought the very same thing, since Republicans are beginning to bail out by the busload. But this latest group may have nade an error by forming themselves into a _group_, whuch can be dismissed as a group – “bunch of out of touch retirees who don’t understand the post-9/11 world.” Saves a lot of time for the dirty tricks people. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164/31 "2004-06-17T21:21:49Z")
> [@Boyo Jim](#): > > I thought the very same thing, since Republicans are beginning to bail out by the busload. > > But this latest group may have nade an error by forming themselves into a _group_, whuch can be dismissed as a group – “bunch of out of touch retirees who don’t understand the post-9/11 world.” Saves a lot of time for the dirty tricks people. I think 27 retired ambassadors, generals and admirals are going to be hard to simply dismiss. And making their statement as a group gives them higher public visibility than if they had spoken up one by one. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164/32 "2004-06-17T21:40:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I think 27 retired ambassadors, generals and admirals are going to be hard to simply dismiss. And making their statement as a group gives them higher public visibility than if they had spoken up one by one. Pfft. **Boyo Jim** has already shown how they’ve been dismissed. The question is, what do they do next? Seems to me like they’ve already been silenced. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164/33 "2004-06-17T21:54:01Z")
It is all a sight to see, fer sure…(notwithstanding intense anxiety at finding oneself in any way shoulder to shoulder with Bob Barr) I guess the tipping point woin’t really be reached until Republican congressional candidates start forgetting to return those calls from Karl Rove offering a joint appearance with the New Caesar at the dedication of the Columbus Ohio VFW Hall. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164/34 "2004-06-17T21:55:14Z")
It is all a sight to see, fer sure…(notwithstanding intense anxiety at finding oneself in any way shoulder to shoulder with Bob Barr) I guess the tipping point woin’t really be reached until Republican congressional candidates start forgetting to return those calls from Karl Rove offering a joint appearance with "Little Caesar "at the dedication of the Columbus Ohio VFW Hall. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164/35 "2004-06-17T22:00:48Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > It is all a sight to see, fer sure…(notwithstanding intense anxiety at finding oneself in any way shoulder to shoulder with Bob Barr) > > I guess the tipping point woin’t really be reached until Republican congressional candidates start forgetting to return those calls from Karl Rove offering a joint appearance with "Little Caesar "at the dedication of the Columbus Ohio VFW Hall. Now that I think about it, Ewdard G robinson does have a face shaped like GWB, and if you exagerrated that rictus grin bush is sporting these days, you do have a cross between Dathan( the Collaborator) and little caesar. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164/36 "2004-06-18T00:02:06Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > …I guess the tipping point woin’t really be reached until Republican congressional candidates start forgetting to return those calls from Karl Rove offering a joint appearance with "Little Caesar "at the dedication of the Columbus Ohio VFW Hall. Keep your eye on Tom DeLay (R-Undead). He’s got a bit of trouble brewing, not much, just the usual polical/monetary shenanigans, s.o.p. for Texas. But DeLay looks like he’s trying to get past it by throwing his weight around. If his fellow rodents decide that the ship is very unseaworthy, they will ditch. And if Tom (the Hammer) tries to exert discipline they will turn him on, and rend him asunder, hallelujah! If ToDeLay loses his clout, he loses survival. And if that happens, it’s because a whole bunch of professional politicians bailed out. A shrewder analysis of which side one’s bread is buttered cannot be found. They will be the first to know if there is blood in the water, and who’s blood it is. And they will act accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164/37 "2004-06-18T00:07:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Keep your eye on Tom DeLay (R-Undead). He’s got a bit of trouble brewing, not much, just the usual polical/monetary shenanigans, s.o.p. for Texas. But DeLay looks like he’s trying to get past it by throwing his weight around. If his fellow rodents decide that the ship is very unseaworthy, they will ditch. And if Tom (the Hammer) tries to exert discipline they will turn him on, and rend him asunder, hallelujah! > > If ToDeLay loses his clout, he loses survival. And if that happens, it’s because a whole bunch of professional politicians bailed out. A shrewder analysis of which side one’s bread is buttered cannot be found. They will be the first to know if there is blood in the water, and who’s blood it is. And they will act accordingly. But how does that affect Bush’s chances in the election? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164/38 "2004-06-18T00:41:57Z")
You got it bass-ackwards. Its not Tom DeLay losing his grip on the House as a _cause_ but as an _effect_. If a pack of cannibal Congresscritters detect weakness, if in thier professional judgement the Bushiviks are more a liability than otherwise…well, then it’s adios, mofo. No? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164/39 "2004-06-18T00:51:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You got it bass-ackwards. Its not Tom DeLay losing his grip on the House as a _cause_ but as an _effect_. If a pack of cannibal Congresscritters detect weakness, if in thier professional judgement the Bushiviks are more a liability than otherwise…well, then it’s adios, mofo. No? But if DeLay falls, the House majority is still Republican; they’s just choose another Republican speaker. Why does Bush need DeLay? Or . . . do you mean that would be sign that even the Republican leadership is ready to wash its hands of Bush? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164/40 "2004-06-18T01:04:23Z")
Not necessarily the leadership, but if the rank and file decides that Bush is someone to avoid, the “leadership” will follow. I think what elucidator is suggesting is that if enough of the Republican rank and file step aside and allow DeLay to fall, it’s a pretty powerful indicator that Bush won’t be able to count on them either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-garners-unprecedented-opposition-from-government-conservative-ranks/250164.md?page=1)