# Bush gave away $30-billion the other day for AIDs research. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 3, 2007, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610 "2007-06-03T21:46:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610/101 "2007-06-04T16:40:08Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] I don’t know where you get your information on who can afford what, and I don’t know whether you’re combining “private enterprise” and private charity into one big pot (which would destroy your premise, in my opinion). [/QUOTE] I think I put it badly. It’s not just a matter of many AIDS sufferers being poor, it’s also that for other diseases/conditions people may have more money. Were I after profit and profit alone, I would likely spend most of my time and effort into things that can be charged a lot for and where the majority of potential customers can afford it. Cancer would probably be high on that list, obviously, but I think if you’re after profit you’d focus on problems that are most prevalent in the richer countries. Private charity’s another thing entirely. For one thing, I don’t believe that, were all government support for medical research to disappear tomorrow, people themselves would make up the difference. I think that mandated charity (though I suppose it can’t be called that) is necessary in order to keep a high level of actual money going towards certain conditions. > [@](#): > > But I do know that the cite Fear linked me to says that the biggest problem has been awareness. And it said nothing about the disease affecting only people of limited means. I didn’t say anything about “only”, either. I said vast majority. I’m quite prepared to take those words back should you find a cite, though. I’m never that comfortable claiming there’s a vast majority of anything. > [@](#): > > It is a disease that comes in many forms and degrees of severity, and happens to inflict more women than men. The sheer generosity of Americans —especially people of faith — for charity is legendary and well documented. As they’re made more and more aware of the problem, I would expect them to come through. I have no doubt that it is as you say (and, while I agree on your statement about people of faith, I would hope that wasn’t a subtle jab). The problem as I see it is although people may be incredibly, fantastically generous it still isn’t enough. Without paying out of taxes, the levels of money raised will never be as high as with either that raised through private enterprise or charity or both. > [@](#): > > At the very least, I trust them as much as or more than I trust the politicians in charge of distributing conscripted dollars. Many of them lied, cheated, and blew smoke up our asses just to get their jobs. Why would they magically become good Samaritans once they have the power they craved? The question is; why did they lie, cheat, and blow smoke? To look good, to look electable. I have no doubt that your average politician is just as or even less trustworthy as your average man on the street (though I suppose one could make an argument based on profile). But, though it is a corrupt, red-tape-filled, slow system, I still think it’s better than the alternative. ---
**Author:** ![ForumBot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee59a6/32.png) [@ForumBot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ForumBot)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610/102 "2007-06-04T16:46:45Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] There aren’t enough roll eye smileys in the world, I feel I depicted your beliefs most accurately. You feel like you own your property and that you have a right to live your life “separate” from the government. Basically, you feel that people should be allowed to create conclaves of anarchy as long as they own the land. [/quote] By jove you’ve got it! But where you mischaracterized me was where you stated that I personally would prefer to do these things or that I thought the majority of people if given this choice would. > [@](#): > > Well, sorry, that just doesn’t fly. And since this is the pit, I’ll come out and say it’s just plain stupid, and you’re stupid for thinking that. Your mother wears combat boots. > [@](#): > > How exactly would these people who have decided to “opt out” from being governed by America be dealt with? Would you have to get a passport, and go through customs every time you left your yard, as you were leaving the “Ungoverned Autonomous Property of ForumBot” and entering the United States? If the owners of that land submitted to a government requiring such, yes. Sucks, don’t it? That’s why most people wouldn’t bother with their own autonomous 2,000 sq feet and just accept the government. > [@](#): > > Would these people who have “opted out” of being governed by the U.S. government be allowed to opt back in? Once they opt back in, should they be able to start sending their kids to school without having to pay back taxes? Yes and maybe. On the second count, I won’t give my opinion on something I haven’t thought about much longer than I have the issue of back taxes. I’ll say I’m open to all opinions on that. > [@](#): > > Should they, while they’ve “opted out of being governed” be allowed to reap the benefits of said government that they refuse to be governed by and refuse to fund? ie, should you be allowed to travel on our roads, and interact in our economy which you cannot separate from our government (and I say that as one of the strongest free market advocates on this message board)? Yes, you can interact with the economy, but any disputes that might arise would have to be settled in a way outside of one government’s court. Maybe a pre-agreed upon arbitration? I guess even buying loaves of bread would be subject to the same sort of disputes we see when the member of one country tries to sue another. > [@](#): > > Everything you’d see for sale at a store would have been transported over the interstate highway system, built and funded by taxes you’re refusing to pay. Would you be willing to forego buying any consumer goods, or would you be okay with buying them, as long as you didn’t have to pay sales tax on them? If dealing with an unjust government, then non-essentials should be avoided. If you need something like bread, then it’s fine to go ahead and support the tyranny but the difference should be made up to society. Before you ask, yes, I am putting my money where my mouth is. I am in medical school training to work with Doctors Without Borders. ---
**Author:** ![Mapache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@Mapache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mapache)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610/103 "2007-06-04T17:33:33Z")
Quote: Originally Posted by jsgoddess Right. He just throws them into the pit of Hell if they don’t. No coercion there! Just a friendly little eternal penalty. > [@](#): > > Liberal: > I think you’ve confused Jesus with Pat Robertson. Jesus is the guy with the long hair and beard. > [@](#): > > Jesus: 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? > > 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. > > 46: \*\* > 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment\*\* but the righteous into life eternal. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610/104 "2007-06-04T18:20:49Z")
[QUOTE=GuyNblueJeans] He could have just told them that we’re not giving them a dime. They can try something called “abstinence.” [/QUOTE] I’m against abstinence: I think you should go fuck yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610/105 "2007-06-04T19:48:50Z")
[QUOTE=ForumBot] By jove you’ve got it! But where you mischaracterized me was where you stated that I personally would prefer to do these things or that I thought the majority of people if given this choice would. [/quote] I never said that everyone or you personally would prefer those things. > [@](#): > > If the owners of that land submitted to a government requiring such, yes. Sucks, don’t it? That’s why most people wouldn’t bother with their own autonomous 2,000 sq feet and just accept the government. Why should the government of the United States allow it? Wouldn’t this allow those crazy-assed militia groups to buy huge tracts of land and declare themselves “independent of the United States?” These are the fundamental reasons _why_ this idea is batshit insane and _why_ it should never be remotely tolerated. > [@](#): > > Yes, you can interact with the economy, but any disputes that might arise would have to be settled in a way outside of one government’s court. Maybe a pre-agreed upon arbitration? I guess even buying loaves of bread would be subject to the same sort of disputes we see when the member of one country tries to sue another. Why should the United States allow this? Why would they even let someone who decided to form their own breakaway piece of property into the United States at all? What if I’m a pedophile, decide to have a bunch of kids, take them to my ranch, decide to “opt out” of government and rape said kids all day every day? Since I’ve opted out of government, the United States would have no authority to do anything about it. Fundamentally if you _genuinely_ mean what you say, that based on property rights (which are only in existence because of government) then this is the kind of thing you have to be okay with. You’ve said it’s “all or nothing.” So opting out has to be _absolute_ meaning, no law enforcement from the United States, no authority from the U.S. government over YOU at all. So, if you’re willing to put up with the inconveniences, this system of yours would be great for pedophiles, they could even pool their funds, start their own ranch with their own kids, who they’d then breed together periodically to continually inject new kids into the pedo-country for sexual slavery. Likewise white supremacists could establish their own breakaway “compound.” Which could eventually become a major security threat. ---
**Author:** ![ForumBot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee59a6/32.png) [@ForumBot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ForumBot)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610/106 "2007-06-04T20:06:53Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Why should the government of the United States allow it? [/quote] Why would a dictator suffer a democracy? It isn’t in anyway in our current government’s best interest, except to the fact that all citizens who are there 100% voluntarily will be better served to their duty (in the same way a volunteer army has higher morale.) It should happen because it’s right. > [@](#): > > Wouldn’t this allow those crazy-assed militia groups to buy huge tracts of land and declare themselves “independent of the United States?” Yes? So long as they don’t attack anyone, let them. > [@](#): > > What if I’m a pedophile, decide to have a bunch of kids, take them to my ranch, decide to “opt out” of government and rape said kids all day every day? Since I’ve opted out of government, the United States would have no authority to do anything about it. Every entity has the right to defend itself from harm, to the death if need be, and a government can invade a sovereign land to defend its citizenry. Or, in my admittedly controversial view, to intercede on behalf of an oppressed people. > [@](#): > > Fundamentally if you _genuinely_ mean what you say, that based on property rights (which are only in existence because of government) Rights exist independent of governing bodies. Governments _protect_ rights, not grant them. Regarding your “pedofarm” theory, see above about rights to self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2007, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610/107 "2007-06-04T23:02:48Z")
[QUOTE=Mapache] […no original content…] [/QUOTE] One man’s punishment is another man’s reward. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610/108 "2007-06-05T01:23:07Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] One man’s punishment is another man’s reward. [/QUOTE] Well, that’s the _second_ guy sorted. How about the first? ---
**Author:** ![Mapache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@Mapache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mapache)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610/109 "2007-06-05T02:08:52Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] One man’s punishment is another man’s reward. [/QUOTE] How many people view “Everlasting torment” as a reward? Or didn’t Jesus really say that? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610/110 "2007-06-05T02:36:04Z")
[QUOTE=ForumBot] If there is great enough need for it, it will be invented. Clearly there was, as it is here. (The internet framework was developed as a subset of the military, a legitimate result of competition of power.) [/QUOTE] Let’s ALL have fun with fallacies! I will go first. Ahem. If there were a great enough need for a country that allows its citizens to opt out of social responsibilities, there would already be such a country. There isn’t, so there isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![ForumBot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee59a6/32.png) [@ForumBot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ForumBot)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610/111 "2007-06-05T03:21:34Z")
What I described is a very direct, observable and testable result of the marketplace that has been the consensus of modern economic thought for over two hundred years. What you are describing is not. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610/112 "2007-06-05T03:29:34Z")
[QUOTE=ForumBot] What I described is a very direct, observable and testable result of the marketplace that has been the consensus of modern economic thought for over two hundred years. [/QUOTE] That rather depends on which economist you ask. The conclusion that “if there’s a need, it will be filled” just plain ignores reality. If it’s not **profitable** , it won’t be met. If serving that need offends the people who run the corporations that would fill that need, it won’t be met. If it takes more than a decade or so of research, it won’t be met ( I’m being generous, here ). Companies are concerned with making a profit, NOW, and with pushing the ideology of the men who run it; not with meeting people’s needs. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610/113 "2007-06-05T03:37:37Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Companies are concerned with making a profit, NOW, and with pushing the ideology of the men who run it; not with meeting people’s needs. [/QUOTE] To be fair, business will work like hell to meet the needs of the wealthy. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610/114 "2007-06-05T04:31:04Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] One man’s punishment is another man’s reward. [/QUOTE] “For example, one place will serve quite admirably as both a Hell for humans and a Heaven for mosquitoes.” – C.S. Lewis, from memory and no doubt slightly paraphrased ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610/115 "2007-06-05T04:50:43Z")
[QUOTE=ForumBot] What I described is a very direct, observable and testable result of the marketplace that has been the consensus of modern economic thought for over two hundred years. What you are describing is not. [/QUOTE] What is the test for this proposition? ---
**Author:** ![ForumBot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee59a6/32.png) [@ForumBot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ForumBot)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610/116 "2007-06-05T06:19:38Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] That rather depends on which economist you ask. The conclusion that “if there’s a need, it will be filled” just plain ignores reality. If it’s not **profitable** , it won’t be met. [/quote] Not always. Soup kitchens bleed money but continue to exist. > [@](#): > > Companies are concerned with making a profit, NOW, and with pushing the ideology of the men who run it; not with meeting people’s needs. If they don’t meet anyone’s needs, they don’t make profit any time. Still, none of this changes the fact that governments aren’t subject to the same marketplace pressures that commodities are. [QUOTE=Ravenman] What is the test for this proposition? [/quote] You set up a system, make predictions and see if those predictions are met. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610/117 "2007-06-05T08:14:56Z")
[QUOTE=ForumBot] Not always. Soup kitchens bleed money but continue to exist. [/quote] And are too few, too small to make much difference. Without government aid, we’d go back to the “good old days” where people starved, or if they were lucky got dog food. Or just ate the dog. [QUOTE=ForumBot] If they don’t meet anyone’s needs, they don’t make profit any time. Still, none of this changes the fact that governments aren’t subject to the same marketplace pressures that commodities are. [/quote] Which quite often is a **good thing**. The market is not the sole source of all that is good and just, unblemished by malice and greed, no matter what you want to believe. ---
**Author:** ![ForumBot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee59a6/32.png) [@ForumBot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ForumBot)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610/118 "2007-06-05T14:15:09Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Which quite often is a **good thing**. The market is not the sole source of all that is good and just, unblemished by malice and greed, no matter what you want to believe. [/QUOTE] Are you even listening to what I’m saying? I’m responding to **Ravenman** who tried to use my argument that markets create needed services to explain why my ideal government doesn’t exist. I did not argue they are responsible for everything good. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610/119 "2007-06-06T00:14:21Z")
[QUOTE=ForumBot] Are you even listening to what I’m saying? I’m responding to **Ravenman** who tried to use my argument that markets create needed services to explain why my ideal government doesn’t exist. I did not argue they are responsible for everything good. [/QUOTE] You still dodged around the main point that although companies meet many of people’s needs, there are many that just aren’t profitable to meet. Any public good (i.e. any good that people can’t be excluded from using even if they don’t pay) will not be provided by the market. Who would build a lighthouse if not a government? It’s not as though you can just tell people who aren’t willing to pay to ignore the light. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610/120 "2007-06-06T01:18:48Z")
[QUOTE=ForumBot] I did not argue they are responsible for everything good. [/QUOTE] Then who is responsible for the good things not supplied by the free market? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-gave-away-30-billion-the-other-day-for-aids-research/406610.md?page=7)