[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
And what do you call valuing private property over all else? Is that not an ideology?
[/QUOTE]
I don’t value private property above all else. I would gladly sell all of my property to save my mother’s life. We’re edging slowly into a discussion of whether rights exist and if they do where they come from, and I’d really really like to save that for a GD thread.
[QUOTE=ForumBot]
Property taxes. Avoid those and they come after you.
[/QUOTE]
Yup. If they didn’t go after Ted Kaczynski for the whole mailbombing thing, the jackbooted thugs DEFINITELY would have been after him for his three dollars and fitty cents in annual property taxes on his shack. 
WOMAN, dont you give that monster his tree fiddy
[QUOTE=ForumBot]
I don’t value private property above all else.
[/QUOTE]
Let me rephrase. You value private property over a stranger’s life.
[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
Let me rephrase. You value private property over a stranger’s life.
[/QUOTE]
And you couldn’t save any lives by selling everything you own, then giving all your money to some of the poorest people on the planet?
[QUOTE=VarlosZ]
And you couldn’t save any lives by selling everything you own, then giving all your money to some of the poorest people on the planet?
[/QUOTE]
One can criticize an extremist without first adopting an opposite but equally extreme position.
It’s not an opposite position at all. It’s functionally identical, which is what I was pointing out. Fear criticized Forum for ‘valuing private property over a stranger’s life,’ yet he presumably values his own private property more than the lives he could save by liquifying it and giving it away.
[QUOTE=VarlosZ]
It’s not an opposite position at all. It’s functionally identical, which is what I was pointing out.
[/QUOTE]
Well, then I’m afraid you’ve failed in your stated goal. Next time, try harder.
[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
Let me rephrase. You value private property over a stranger’s life.
[/QUOTE]
We all do, to some extent. I’m not willing to give up everything to help others. I am willing to give up some things, and I don’t consider my taxation rate to be particularly high.
[QUOTE=Miller]
Well, then I’m afraid you’ve failed in your stated goal. Next time, try harder.
[/QUOTE]
I think in this case the failure is at least as much your fault as mine. So, next time, you try harder, too.
Also, see my expanded post (#187) for clarification.
[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
I am willing to give up some things, and I don’t consider my taxation rate to be particularly high.
[/QUOTE]
That was the point I was making to ForumBot. If we all give up a little, no one of us has to give up everything.
[QUOTE=ForumBot]
I advocate a system in which the strong voluntarily help the weak.
[/QUOTE]
I advocate a system in which curvy brunettes oil-wrestle nightly for the chance to share my bed with me. As long as we’re signing up for fantasy worlds and all.
[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
That was the point I was making to ForumBot. If we all give up a little, no one of us has to give up everything.
[/QUOTE]
And it’s a good point. And I agree!
The question for me is, in Libertaria, would I have any sort of moral obligation – I certainly would have no legal one – to risk my own life attempting to intervene when the outraged mob heads for ForumBot’s private property, armed adequately to overcome any defences whatsoever that he may have, and prepared to deprive him of his worldly possessions, and his life if he resists. He has cut himself off from the body politic by refusing to give it his voluntary informed consent to levy assessments against him for what a majority of his peers deem the common good. He has no call whatsoever on their goodwill, except whatever moral suasion may be present.
It’s stuff like this that makes me very uncomfortable with discussions of doctrinaire (taxes=theft) libertarian concepts. Lib’s principles, though firm and based in sound doctrine, make sense: limited government with one overarching purpose, all else voluntary and conditioned on the moral suasion of the community: You don’t have to help out on the collection for earthquake relief that left Fran and George’s parents homeless and destitute and pretty much left Irwin’s brother and his family dependent on Irwin and their sister until he can rebuild. But you’re going to feel like a major asshole being the only person on the block that didn’t pitch in.
That my biggest problem with libertarianism; it hinges on the idea that people are not huge assholes. 
[QUOTE=GuyNblueJeans]
As a hard-working tax payer, How does that make you feel?
[/QUOTE]
Extemely good, thanks for asking. So good infact he should do it again!
[QUOTE=ForumBot]
Re: the claims that I am a social darwinist:
I am not. Social darwinism calls for the elimination of the weak at the hands of the strong. I advocate a system in which the strong voluntarily help the weak. The ones that don’t are assholes of the highest order and deserve as much scorn as can be heaped upon them, but not death.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, The Strong–living on their vast freeholds, using their many skills to supply most of their needs, yet earning huge sums of money with their creative talents. What a shame that they’re forced to pay taxes to support lesser beings.
Sounds much more appealing that pimply faced twerps, fantasizing about future riches. When all they own is a dogeared copy of The Fountainhead.
[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
That was the point I was making to ForumBot. If we all give up a little, no one of us has to give up everything.
[/QUOTE]
I agree. I would be more than happy to do my share and pay my taxes if the choice existed. But if you could just let that very very small number of people who disagree and mean you no harm be, then it would be fair.
Nope. You aren’t obligated to come save my life either personally or with your militarily if I have opted out of your government. Which is why I probably wouldn’t live in my own little Libershack in the woods.
I agree with this, too.
Bridget: do you have a point to make?
[QUOTE=ForumBot]
And you are a monster. I think we’re done.
[/QUOTE]
Dude’s a monster because he wants his wife to live? :dubious: I bet the asshole even loves her! he must be stopped!
I find your greed disgusting. Your system would condemn her to death. No one is forcing you to live here and pay taxes you know. Head a ways out to sea and bam international waters. Just watch out for pirates.
What kind of screwed up world view do you have when the poor dieing for basic needs like medical care, and food, are worse then taxes?
[QUOTE=ForumBot]
But if you could just let that very very small number of people who disagree and mean you no harm be, then it would be fair.
[/QUOTE]
Everyone disagrees with some federal spending or another. If we let you disagree with one thing, then others will want to disagree with their pet peeve, and pretty soon, it is not a very small number anymore.
What is fair is to give one man one vote. If you disagree with a spending decision, you may vote for representatives that agree with you, or run your self. If you cannot persuade a majority of voters to agree with you, your viewpoint was obviously not worth pursuing. The market has spoken; that would be fair.