# Bush had better do something pretty damn fast about the solidier's being killed daily **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 27, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172 "2003-07-27T00:55:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172/121 "2003-07-28T22:09:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*\>\> They must have been convinced that getting rid of Saddam was absolutely necessary. > > Necessary for what? I have not heard any valid reasons yet. > > \>\> They said that successful completion of Iraqi operation should take about two years. > > They have said so many things which have turned tout to be lies I do not believe anything any more. > > \>\>I think we need to postpone drawing conclusions for two years. > > Sorry. No can do. The last thing I am going to do is stop thinking and let theliars think for me. \*\* Necessary in the context of WOT. My point is that they are running it and they can’t afford any serious screw-ups: political consequences would be devastating. It is conceivable that they have peripheral benefits in mind. It is inconceivable that they are blithely taking advantage of post-9/11 situation. Nobody can be that stupid. Lies don’t bother me. All politicians lie, regardless of party affiliations. This country is based on lies; all other countries are based on lies. Honest Abe lied. George Washington probably too. The question is which lie is smart and which is stupid? Don’t believe anything, I agree. Analyze the situation, understand the reasons and evaluate the potential outcomes. Don’t stop thinking. Wait with the conclusions, perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172/122 "2003-07-28T22:37:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dissonance \* > \*\*Chechnya and Iraq are such vastly different conflicts that comparing one to the other isn’t terribly useful. That said, The fighting has been going on for closer to 9 years. > \*\*[PNAC](http://www.newamericancentury.org/) has been calling for the removal of Saddam by force of arms since prior to 9/11, and the credible links that the administration has been able to substantiate between Saddam and international terrorists directed at the US are nonexistent. > > \*\*I’m with **sailor** on this one. Surrendering my brain for two years in the hope that all turns out for the better isn’t something I plan on doing. \*\* Chechnya is now in guerilla stage, Iraq seems to be heading there. Chechen islamic warriors are trained in the same camps and get supplies from the same sources as all the other muslim warriors. If there will be real guerilla war in Iraq, there will be numerous similarities. Present Russian occupation goes on for almost 3 years. Previously, Russians were routed, armistice was signed and while Russians never recognized Chechen independence, they were effectively out of there for 3 years, so Chechens had some time to build up and reinforce themselves, which they failed to do. If I understand your point correctly, I also think that Saddam was a marked man long before Bush came to power. I seem to remember that Clinton was saying that Saddam is a threat and has to be dealt with sometime in 1998. Don’t surrender your brain. At the same time, we all are only the spectators. Don’t leave, enjoy the show, it might end not quite as you expect. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172/123 "2003-07-29T00:40:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by New Iskander \* > \*\*Chechnya is now in guerilla stage, Iraq seems to be heading there. Chechen islamic warriors are trained in the same camps and get supplies from the same sources as all the other muslim warriors. If there will be real guerilla war in Iraq, there will be numerous similarities. Present Russian occupation goes on for almost 3 years. Previously, Russians were routed, armistice was signed and while Russians never recognized Chechen independence, they were effectively out of there for 3 years, so Chechens had some time to build up and reinforce themselves, which they failed to do. > > If I understand your point correctly, I also think that Saddam was a marked man long before Bush came to power. I seem to remember that Clinton was saying that Saddam is a threat and has to be dealt with sometime in 1998. > > Don’t surrender your brain. At the same time, we all are only the spectators. Don’t leave, enjoy the show, it might end not quite as you expect. \*\* Chechnya is a breakaway republic that was forcibly incorporated into Russia during its expansion into the Caucasus during the mid 19th century. Islam plays a role in the current Chechen crisis, but it isn’t the only factor at play. Russia is attempting to keep an ethnic minority forcibly incorporated into itself. Comparisons of Iraq to Chechnya don’t get much further than both have large Muslim populations. Islamic warriors don’t all get trained in the same location, the Chechens are more than capable of training themselves and supplying themselves with former Soviet weapons. My point about PNAC is that the same people who turned around and invaded Iraq this year have been calling for it explicitly since 1998. This well known [letter to Clinton](http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm) from PNAC is signed by a veritable who’s who in the Bush administration. Richard Armitage (Dep. Secretary of State), Richard Perle (Chair of the Defense Policy Board), Donald Rumsfeld (Secretary of Defense), and Paul Wolfowitz (Dep. Secretary of Defense) just to name a few. Their plans weren’t secret, they’ve been out in the open for some time and they grabbed claims of WMDs (none found) and hijacked 9/11 as a justification for the war (no links to international terrorists gunning for the US either). I’m not calling for the US to leave Iraq, doing so would make a bad situation unbelievably worse. I don’t like being lied to in order to lead the country to war and the occupation of a foreign country. It had nothing to do with the war on terrorism. It has done nothing to make the US safer, if anything it has made it less safe. Having to go along for the ride doesn’t mean I have to enjoy it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172/124 "2003-07-29T00:59:09Z")
I concur. An immediate pullout just isnt an option. Some very arrogant people did some really dumb shit, and we’re stuck with it. I say GeeDubya’s got to go begging. Jordan, Saudi, any place with some trained Arab-speaking troops, maybe some blue helmets. If the man has even a shred of common decency, he will kiss whatever he has to to get a least some of our people out of this shithole. I’ve got to wonder if he ever looks at himself when shaving and thinks “Man, I really screwed the pooch this time…” ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172/125 "2003-07-29T01:50:02Z")
Dissonance, Subject of Chechnya is very interesting, unfortunately it would take us way off-topic if we go into all the details. Of course there are significant differences, however I still think that the common factor of large Western (well, in case of Russia, at least remotely so) occupying force in Islamic country makes the comparison very pertinent. Besides, I put it in just “to add perspective”. Only future can tell if removal of Saddam made US safer or not. Fact is, so far there were no more ter. acts; unfortunately, it’s too early to make conclusions. “Enjoy” was not the best word in context. “Observe”, perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172/126 "2003-07-29T02:03:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Chechnya is now in guerilla stage, Iraq seems to be heading there. Chechen islamic warriors are trained in the same camps and get supplies from the same sources as all the other muslim warriors. There is a central clearing house for weapons and soldiers in all Islamic uprisings? I think not. Each uprising is it’s own. Do you have a cite that all are fed from a central location? One soldier dying for a lie is too many. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172/127 "2003-07-29T02:07:10Z")
The estimate of the CIA and prominent American intel officials is that the invasion of Iraq will increase the pools of potential terrorists and increase the likelihood of whatever banned weapons Iraq may’ve had getting into the hands of international terrorists. These officials could be wrong of course, but it is their considered professional opinion. Seems signifigant to me. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172/128 "2003-07-29T02:30:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*I say GeeDubya’s got to go begging. Jordan, Saudi, any place with some trained Arab-speaking troops, \*\* Good point. I heard a couple of big brains on _The News Hour_ talking about what it will take to get some sort of law and order in Iraq. One of them, believe it or not, said that we needed to get several thousand trained police from Europe there in a hurry. I wondered where he was going to find several thousand trained, Arab-speaking police in Europe. > [@](#): > > \*\*I’ve got to wonder if he ever looks at himself when shaving and thinks “Man, I really screwed the pooch this time…” \*\* Didn’t GW had several opportunities to do this in his business enterprises and he hasn’t done it yet? Why should he do it now? This isn’t costing him anything. If by some chance his political future disappears so what? He will still live comfortably and be invited to speak at high fees by his sycophants around the country. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172/129 "2003-07-29T03:28:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David Simmons \* > **Good point. I heard a couple of big brains on _The News Hour_ talking about what it will take to get some sort of law and order in Iraq. One of them, believe it or not, said that we needed to get several thousand trained police from Europe there in a hurry. I wondered where he was going to find several thousand trained, Arab-speaking police in Europe.** Funny thing, they’ve hired DynCorp, a computer science firm, to do the policing. They’re hiring U.S. citizens only, and there’s no require they speak Arabic. It’s hard to imagine a less-qualified group for the job. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172/130 "2003-07-29T07:02:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by New Iskander \* > Chechnya is now in guerilla stage, It has been for years. > [@](#): > > Chechen islamic warriors are trained in the same camps and get supplies from the same sources as all the other muslim warriors. Complete rubbish. Some Chechens have gone to al-Qaeda or other camps, there is no evidence that a majority of the fighters have. The equipment appears to be largely obtained two ways. (a) Russian soldiers sell it on the black market (b) It’s stolen from Russian armories. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172/131 "2003-07-29T07:42:12Z")
elucidator: An immediate pullout just isnt an option. Some very arrogant people did some really dumb shit, and we’re stuck with it. Dissonance: I’m not calling for the US to leave Iraq, doing so would make a bad situation unbelievably worse. I don’t like being lied to in order to lead the country to war and the occupation of a foreign country. It had nothing to do with the war on terrorism. It has done nothing to make the US safer, if anything it has made it less safe. Having to go along for the ride doesn’t mean I have to enjoy it. This is exactly the situation: The USA can’t win and it can’t quit. It is stuck with the mess it got itself into. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172/132 "2003-07-29T10:58:20Z")
The assertion that we are less safe because of the war on Iraq is just that: an assertion. There is absolutely no way we will know one way or another for quite a few years. One thing is for certain: Success or failure in Iraq’s transition to democracy is going to be the key in the war on terror. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172/133 "2003-07-29T11:41:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > \*\*The assertion that we are less safe because of the war on Iraq is just that: an assertion. > \ > One thing is for certain: Success or failure in Iraq’s transition to democracy is going to be the key in the war on terror. \*\* Your “certainty” has less basis in fact than the “assertion” that you dismissed. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172/134 "2003-07-29T11:53:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > \*\* > The assertion that we are less safe because of the war on Iraq is just that: an assertion. > \*\* Yes, but as it is an assertion from noted experts in the field as a professional judgement, it quite a bit different than if I was making it. While I don’t know what resources they have available to them that they use to make this judgement, I do know that the intelligence and counterterrorism resources of the CIA and other US intel agencies are greater than what are available to most people in the world. So it’s actually more than an assertion, it’s a considered, expert opinion. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172/135 "2003-07-29T11:57:42Z")
**Your “certainty” has less basis in fact than the “assertion” that you dismissed.** So you think the success or failure in Iraq will have little bearing on our future security? \*\*Yes, but as it is an assertion from noted experts in the field as a professional judgement, it quite a bit different than if I was making it. \*\* I know of nobody who has said we are less safe outside of blogs and discussion boards and editorials. If there are experts saying that who are willing to explain this, I’d love to read it. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172/136 "2003-07-29T12:42:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > **Your “certainty” has less basis in fact than the “assertion” that you dismissed.** > > So you think the success or failure in Iraq will have little bearing on our future security? Of course it will, however to assert the ‘War on Terror’ depends on it is absurd at best. Certainly on the downside the risks of failure are clear, stark and very large. Those are hardly in question, so we have a very large and well-defined negative on the balance sheet. On the positive side, in regards to terror, we have a murky, hard to know and impossible to define positive of some hypothetical “plus” from reconstructing Iraq. This hypothesis, so fervantly promoted by Perle et al depends on a number of rather strong assumptions regarding “transformation” of the region, which I see no support for historically. Indeed I know of no serious students of the region who can take this line of analysis seriously. > [@](#): > > \*\*Yes, but as it is an assertion from noted experts in the field as a professional judgement, it quite a bit different than if I was making it. \*\* > > I know of nobody who has said we are less safe outside of blogs and discussion boards and editorials. If there are experts saying that who are willing to explain this, I’d love to read it. CIA’s judgement among many. Pay attention. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172/137 "2003-07-29T12:49:59Z")
> [@](#): > > [Congressional Record October 9, 2002 Page S10154](http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2002/10/dci100702.html) > > ``` > Baghdad for now appears to be drawing a line short of conducting terrorist attacks with conventional or CBW against the United States. > > Should Saddam conclude that a US-led attack could no longer be deterred, he probably would become much less constrained in adopting terrorist actions. Such terrorism might involve conventional means, as with Iraq's unsuccessful attempt at a terrorist offensive in 1991, or CBW. > > ``` > > Saddam might decide that the extreme step of assisting Islamist terrorists in conducting a WMD attack against the United States would be his last chance to exact vengeance by taking a large number of victims with him. > > ``` > **Senator Levin** : . . . If (Saddam) didn't feel threatened, did not feel threatened, is it likely that he would initiate an attack using a weapon of mass destruction? > > **Senior Intelligence Witness** : . . . My judgment would be that the probability of him initiating an attack--let me put a time frame on it--in the foreseeable future, given the conditions we understand now, the likelihood I think would be low. > > **Senator Levin** : Now if he did initiate an attack you've . . . indicated he would probably attempt clandestine attacks against us . . . But what about his use of weapons of mass destruction? If we initiate an attack and he thought he was in extremis or otherwise, what's the likelihood in response to our attack that he would use chemical or biological weapons? > > ``` > > **Senior Intelligence Witness** : Pretty high, in my view. Here’s one to start with. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172/138 "2003-07-29T13:07:07Z")
**adaher** : The contention that we are less safe because of the Iraq invasion is no more an assertion than the contention that we are more safe. The “experts” who claim the latter are the ones who have most clearly used filtered views of intelligence on the matter, and are therefore the less credible, however. **X~Slayer** : The “goals” of the invasion as offered by the administration have been, as you well know, quite changeable, based on marketing rather than fundamental policy, and therefore less than fully credible. A national or transnational consensus of the war’s necessity has never been achieved, or for that matter seriously tried or even considered. In terms of getting our families to accept the possibility of their loved ones deaths, that matters a hell of a lot. Doesn’t it seem so to you? Your comparisons of death rates to traffic accidents and such do not apply. The war was voluntary, optional, not clearly necessary. A risk inherent in the requirements of daily life can be accepted. A similar risk inherent in a nonrequired activity may not be. The deaths our people are incurring every day don’t have to be risked _at all_. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172/139 "2003-07-29T14:29:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\* The deaths our people are incurring every day don’t have to be risked _at all_. \*\* The deaths our people are incurring every day **didn’t** have to be risked in this manner at all. AFAICT, we’re stuck w/ it now. I’ve not heard anybody anywhere make the case that we should pul out now. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172/140 "2003-07-29T14:35:55Z")
Right you are, Simon. I hit Submit too quickly. No, we can’t pull out immediately and totally, and I haven’t heard anyone ask for that either, although there must be someone. The issue now is to minimize the remaining risk not only to the troops but to all of _us_ as well, and, lest we forget, to the Iraqis for whom we are now responsible. Facing and admitting the reality of the situation is a necessary start for Bush. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-had-better-do-something-pretty-damn-fast-about-the-solidiers-being-killed-daily/191172.md?page=8)