# Bush: If you don't like my Iraq plan, tell me yours **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 14, 2007, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956 "2007-01-14T17:14:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956/21 "2007-01-14T20:12:33Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] Speaking as an armchair general, I’d say “ink spots” a la Malaya. Make rigorously guarded green zones all over the country so that people can get on with their lives with less fear of being blown to shit, kidnapped, drilled to death, or shot. “Clean out” the insurgents but hold the territory, rather than cleaning out the areas and then leaving. Expand the green zones slowly until they meet. [/QUOTE] It won’t work; it assumes a non-existant seperation between the “insurgents” and the citizens. The fact is, the majority of the Iraqis hate us and want us dead, sensibly enough, and every fighter you kill will be replaced by one or more citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956/22 "2007-01-14T20:20:37Z")
> [@](#): > > You’ve got Cyprus and Lebanon, and various actions in Africa, some of which were successful, with the awful exception of Rwanda.Their relative success must, though be judged on the rules of engagement they’re given, which is on a per-case basis, I believe. The RoE in Rwanda were very restrictive, hence the catastrophe. I have no doubt that the insurgents would target them in Iraq, so they need to be allowed to attack too, rather than just react. How big is Cyrpus? How many factions were there? How long did it take? Canada alone had troops in Cyprus for something like 25 years, and at the end of it all, how many people ended up dying? If that’s your idea of “success”, then I’d rather stick with the US, after all, they’ve only been at it for 4 years, a pittance compared to Cyprus. What Rwandan “RoE’s” are you talking about? The UN did nothing in Rwanda because without an army there was nothing it could do. You need an army and an air force to do anything and if the US isn’t willing to provide it, as was the case in Rwanda, then you’re SOL. How many troops do you think you would have needed to save Rwanda? On whose planes are those troops even going to get there, who’s going to supply them and who’s going to pay for it all? You could at least be honest and admit, as this poster has, that “turn things over to the UN” is essentially allowing another Rwanda. Aren’t Americans just charming? > [@](#): > > The point is that the US is not (or should not be) the world’s cop. I don’t much care if the Iraqis decide to kill themselves over whether Mohammed’s brother in-law or cousin was the proper successor 900 years ago. Handing the problem over to the UN is just a graceful way of getting the hell out of there. Maybe once the US stops trying to fix everyones problems (and ends up making them worse) the rest of the workd will step up. Off the top of my head I’d guess there are 100 countries geographically closer to Iraq than we are, it’s now their turn. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956/23 "2007-01-14T20:20:38Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Compared to Iraq. (See previous posts in thread.) If, for example, the UN has attempted 100 PKs, how many of the 100 resulted in the UN doing whatever it is that people wanting to call on the UN expect it will do for Iraq? [/QUOTE] You know, upon further consideration, I realize that it really isn’t your responsibility to establish the UN’s lack of success, It is the responsibility of the guy who wants to use the UN to estaablish its credibility. And for what it’s worth, I wasn’t asking what the topic was about. I was asking what you were omparing the UN to in terms of peace keeping effectiveness. As far as I know, the UN is the only group to very many peacekeeping missions, making judging its success hard to impossible. All we have is its X% success rate, which with nothing to compare it to, so as far as we know it could be close to optimal, or so bad that it would be higher if the UN stayed home. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956/24 "2007-01-14T20:46:55Z")
[Here’s a list](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_UN_peacekeeping_missions) of UN peacekeeping missions. The success of each mission must be judged individually - but the comment on “how many people died” in Cyprus is misleading, since the point was the armed blue-helmets were deployed along the demarkation zone to prevent further conflict following the ceasfire, NOT sent in to stop the war. They were there for 25 years because of the lack of political resolution. And under those auspices, they were really rather successful, as there was no resurgence of the war. The Rwandan RoEs I’m talking about are [here](http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=3782), though I can’t find a more detailed report on them, but the point is there were 2,500 UN Observers, limited strictly by their Observer status. Here’s the point: _some_ troops have to be there to enforce peace. Most Iraqis absolutely despise the US and UK, which adds a layer of complication both to the operation, and on a wider basis adds to the highly negative opinions of the Arab world, the Muslim world, US allies, and the rest of the world. So replace the despised soldiers with people who are perceived as more neutral. Maybe they wouldn’t despise blue-helmeted soldiers _as much_, especially if they were drafted in from Islamic countries. Furthermore, you don’t send in a bunch of guys with clipboards. You send in an authorised UN army, recruited from UN member armies, with robust RoE, and armed to the teeth. Who pays for it? That’s a stupid question. The fucking assholes who caused the disaster, of course. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956/25 "2007-01-14T20:47:37Z")
[QUOTE=kawaiitentaclebeast] You could at least be honest and admit, as this poster has, that “turn things over to the UN” is essentially allowing another Rwanda. Aren’t Americans just charming? [/QUOTE] I think the US Army has a spot waiting for you in Bagdhad. While you are at it Canada can kicj in some ot their tax revenue to continue our mission in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956/26 "2007-01-14T20:51:40Z")
[More info about UN RoE failure in Rwanda](http://www.africafocus.org/docs04/rw0403b.php). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956/27 "2007-01-14T20:56:21Z")
How much of the powerlessness of the UN is directly attributable to our refusal to respect it? When the UN agrees with us, we are perfectly happy to drape its legitimacy over our policy. When they don’t, we simply shove them aside and sneer. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956/28 "2007-01-14T21:37:33Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] I have a plan to drown kittens. If you don’t like it, then you tell me how YOU would go about drowning these kittens, smart guy. [/QUOTE] I would drown them in hot oil. Your plan merely leaves us with a bunch of dead, wet kittens. MY plan results in tasty Kitten McNuggets! ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956/29 "2007-01-14T21:53:14Z")
[QUOTE=Dubya] “To oppose everything while proposing nothing is irresponsible,” Bush said./QUOTE] Hokay. Whatcha proposing as a substitute for (throws dart at list of issues where Administration policy fits that description) gay marriage? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956/30 "2007-01-14T23:21:22Z")
Here’s my plan: These whacked out muslim guys seem to have a problem with dogs, so instead of killing all the unadopted strays, we simply drop them off in Iraq. Pretty soon, all that’s left in Iraq are dogs and sane folks who like dogs. Hey, it makes as much sense as sending in more troops. (Everytime I hear that phrase, I keep thinking of that episode of _Futurama_ where the reporter says, "But people won’t be late for work, though. The governor lady says, ‘I’m sending in more trains!’ ") ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2007, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956/31 "2007-01-14T23:29:05Z")
My proposal is simply this-we kill Mohktar al-Sadr, and blame it on Sunni militias. Then we withdraw to fortified bases-and wait till the fire burns out. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956/32 "2007-01-15T03:09:56Z")
As I saw on the Daily Kos website: Bush asking the Democrats what their plan is for Iraq is like: > [@](#): > > “It is like dropping a raw egg and asking me what my plans are for putting it back together.” (Quote courtesy of new Congressman Chris Murphy.) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956/33 "2007-01-15T16:33:01Z")
First rule of holes. Quit digging. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956/34 "2007-01-15T16:43:39Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] First rule of holes. Quit digging. [/QUOTE] [Not Gonna Happen:](http://cbs5.com/topstories/local_story_014235825.html) > [@](#): > > Jan, 2006 > “The perception, Sir, more than any one of those points, is that the administration has not been straight with…,” Pelley says. > > “Well, I strongly disagree with that, of course,” Bush says. “So I strongly reject that this administration hasn’t been straight with the American people. **The minute we found out they didn’t have weapons of mass destruction, I was the first to say so.** ” ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956/35 "2007-01-15T17:23:15Z")
> [@](#): > > **"The minute we found out they didn’t have weapons of mass destruction, I was the first to say so.”** “The minute it became obvious this brick wasn’t gonna fly anymore, I dropped it like a hot potato.” ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956/36 "2007-01-15T19:49:52Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] [Not Gonna Happen:](http://cbs5.com/topstories/local_story_014235825.html) [/QUOTE] Reading that transcript reminds me of another weasel phrase: > [@](#): > > “And the temptation is gonna be to find scapegoats. Well, if the people want a scapegoat, they got one right here in me ‘cause it’s my decisions,” Bush says. A [scapegoat](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat) is one who is assigned the blame rightly due to others (although usually a scapegoat is _part_ of the problem). It’s contradictory to claim to be both “the decider” **and** a scapegoat, although I’m sure the intent was to make GWB appear unfairly put-upon. ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956/37 "2007-01-15T22:24:45Z")
1. Invade Iraq. 2. ? 3. Profit. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956/38 "2007-01-15T23:53:44Z")
Wesley Clark has had a lot of suggestions about how to better handle the Iraq occupation. Guess President Bush’s advisors forgot to point that out to him. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956/39 "2007-01-16T00:02:08Z")
What? Wesley Clark? \*That \*dirty hippy? Shit, they might as well have solicited advise from _me!_ ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956/40 "2007-01-16T02:47:00Z")
Don’t fall for it people. Bush said the same thing to Baker and Hamilton a year ago. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-if-you-dont-like-my-iraq-plan-tell-me-yours/387956.md?page=3)