# Bush installs Bolton; thumbs nose at Congress. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 1, 2005, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137 "2005-08-01T14:33:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137/21 "2005-08-01T15:13:26Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > That link said congress was in recess until Jan 2007? Huh? > [@that link](#): > > Under the Constitution, a recess appointment during the lawmakers’ August break would last until the next session of Congress, which begins in January 2007. It’s talking about the appointment, not the recess. The appointment is only good until the next session of congress starts - Jan 2007. IOW Bolton gets the job, but it’s temporary. ---
**Author:** ![Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chance_the_Gardener)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137/22 "2005-08-01T15:18:02Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > [This article looks at the history of recess appointments a bit more clearly than you just did.](http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/politics/12275653.htm) > > In short, many of those other guys used them, and used them in controversial ways. Clinton made 140 recess appointments. Reagan made 243. Kennedy was able to get Thurgood Marshall onto the federal bench over the objections of segregationists by using a recess appointment. Sure, presidents have done it before, and they’ll do it again. It’s in the Constitution. Consider this: Clinton made 140 recess appointments over the whole of two terms; Bush is well on pace to sidestep Congress far more than him. And just because it’s been done in the past doesn’t make it right to repeat. Furthermore, these recess appointments to high judicial seats are not exactly in the spirit of bipartisanship that Bush pretends to favor. Moreover, considering the shambles our international reputation is in these days, maybe we should try to appoint someone less polarizing to this global body? A well-done UN appointment would serve the United States well in the eyes of many of the poorer nations, to whom the UN is their best means of leverage. Remember that terrorism often finds a home in a lot of those poorer nations. > [@](#): > > So I’m inclined to just chalk this up as more political maneuvering, given this long history, and not read a grave constitutional crisis into it. “Grave Constitutional crisis”? Can the hyperbole. I never said anything of the sort. Please see the U.S. Constitution, Article II, Section 2, Clause 2. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137/23 "2005-08-01T15:18:50Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > :rolleyes: > > I know you’re not talking to me. You’re not one of the ball washers. I shouldn’t have included you. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137/24 "2005-08-01T15:25:49Z")
> [@Chance the Gardener](#): > > Sure, presidents have done it before, and they’ll do it again. It’s in the Constitution. Which means that large chunk of your OP, that part about presidents listening to Congress - was just bullshit pulled out for the occasion? You have me a bit confused here. Perhaps you can quantify a bit better how previous presidents have “listened” to Congress. I ponied up some cases and figures showing that your OP was, to my mind, just a bunch of hot air. Do you have anything else? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137/25 "2005-08-01T15:26:47Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > A simple majority shouldn’t be the end-all of decision making processes. Sure. We have rules. One of those rules is the filibuster. Another is the President’s ability to make recess appointments. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137/26 "2005-08-01T15:30:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. We have rules. > > One of those rules is the filibuster. > > Another is the President’s ability to make recess appointments. Which is fine, provided that one does not labor under the delusion that a recess appointment can somehow constitute “listening to congress”. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137/27 "2005-08-01T15:39:19Z")
Recess appointments are the perogative of the President. While I view it as an endaround tactic, I don’t begrudge this President what past Presidents have used. Problem is this particular appointment. Bolton’s an abrasive, tactless hater of the UN. Why in God’s name would you appoint him _ambassador_ to the UN unless you hate the UN? Why do they hate the UN? Is it because of their desire for unilateral military action? I think there should be more public discussion of exactly what the UN does, what Bolton thinks of it, and what he proposes to do as ambassador. Do most people share this administration’s hatred of the UN? Is this really the people’s will, or is this another case like stem cell research, where the administration acts against the wishes of a substantial majority of people? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137/28 "2005-08-01T15:39:22Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > If you believe this so strongly, then you should agree that Bill Lann Lee and James Hormel should not have been appointed to their respective posts in the Clinton Administration, nor Thurgood Marshall his post as a federal judge. > > After all, if this process is illegitiamate, it must always be so, right? Well I agree with your first case, but not the last two; while I am generally against recess appointments, I think they \*can \* be valid (like when a nominee isn’t put up for a vote because he’s gay, or black). Bolton’s opposition is offering reasoned arguments, not hate speech. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137/29 "2005-08-01T15:43:06Z")
> [@Zhao Daoli](#): > > Well I agree with your first case, but not the last two; while I am generally against recess appointments, I think they \*can \* be valid (like when a nominee isn’t put up for a vote because he’s gay, or black). Bolton’s opposition is offering reasoned arguments, not hate speech. That’s fair. Better to drop the pretense about listening to congress, IMHO, and support or criticize the nomination on its own merits. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137/30 "2005-08-01T15:48:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. We have rules. > > One of those rules is the filibuster. > > Another is the President’s ability to make recess appointments. No shit. I haven’t challenged either of those rules, or attacked the president at all for his appointment. How is anything you just said relevant to the issue of listening to congress, which is what I was commenting on? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137/31 "2005-08-01T15:50:25Z")
There’s nothing illegal or even shady about the appointment itself - though it, and a dozen other little actions like it, really serve to emphasize the grand fiction of Bush’s campaign slogan ‘I’m a uniter, not a divider.’ That’s what chafes _my_ shorts about all this. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137/32 "2005-08-01T15:52:35Z")
I am not at all surprised. Certainly both parties have used this type of appointment, it’s not unusual in the slightest. Nor do I think it’s worth wading one’s panties over. This administration has done many things quite a bit more pitworthy, IMHO. Bush selected the man he wanted for the job he wanted done, and I think it’s an excellent choice. Note, please for the record, that I’m not saying that Bolton is an excellent choice (or even a good one) for the **position**. I am concerned about how our allies will perceive this appointment (and his future actions as well), but then again, I’ve not been particularly supportive of the tone or actions of this administrations foreign policy yet. But ragging on Bush for pushing through this appointment - eh. I’ll be a lot more concerned about SC appointments, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137/33 "2005-08-01T15:56:52Z")
Oh, and I don’t recall much being said about “uniter not a diveder” since the Gore/Bush election. Certainly haven’t seen any evidentiary actions indicating such since then, but even the rhetoric changed to something like “looking forward to spending political capital” vs. that whole uniter/diverder crap. ---
**Author:** ![Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chance_the_Gardener)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137/34 "2005-08-01T16:06:28Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Which means that large chunk of your OP, that part about presidents listening to Congress - was just bullshit pulled out for the occasion? > > You have me a bit confused here. Perhaps you can quantify a bit better how previous presidents have “listened” to Congress. I ponied up some cases and figures showing that your OP was, to my mind, just a bunch of hot air. > > Do you have anything else? Um… well, there was the [Byrd/Reagan agreement of 1985](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/R?r106:FLD001:S58338), which brought standards to this process. As my link shows, President Clinton violated this agreement in 1999, but it’s an exception that proves the rule. Sure, the system hasn’t been perfect, but there’s been a lot more dialogue in the past. Bush’s imperiousness is inexcusable. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137/35 "2005-08-01T16:09:53Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > If only he had been able to get an up or down vote. I have my own reservations about this guy and I don’t like this end run nonsense any more than you do, but you can’t use the “Congress didn’t vote on him” excuse when the Democrat Senators stopped that from happening. Actually, I was asking an honest question. Bolton had dropped off of my radar for a while and I wanted to be sure before I made an ass out of myself. 🙂 What really chafes me isn’t that President Bush did this at all, but that he did it for someone that there were legitimate concerns about. At best he’s a big time asshole. At worst he’s a raving nutter. And this _could_ bite Bush in the ass. Now all the Dems have to do is publically rail against President Bush for bypassing congress and spread everything from legitimate concerns to crazy ass speculation about Bolton. Bear in mind that I say this not as a partisan, but as an observer of the political process. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137/36 "2005-08-01T16:15:04Z")
> [@An Arky](#): > > I think there should be more public discussion of exactly what the UN does… [Norm Coleman is doing that already.](http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/local/12275595.htm) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137/37 "2005-08-01T16:21:59Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > And this _could_ bite Bush in the ass. Now all the Dems have to do is publically rail against President Bush for bypassing congress and spread everything from legitimate concerns to crazy ass speculation about Bolton. Bear in mind that I say this not as a partisan, but as an observer of the political process. And that’s fine with me. I didn’t say what I said as a partisan, I said it as a matter of objective fact. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137/38 "2005-08-01T16:32:13Z")
The UN **is** the world government, by definition (even only on an _ad hoc_ basis). At the moment, it is a largely powerless talking shop dominated by a few powerful states, in which some representatives are returned by undemocratic means. To draw a parallel with the united state government in Washington DC, it is as though most of the southern states send representatives who have not been elected, the majority (General Assembly) votes on any issue can be safely ignored without sanction, and only California, New York, Texas and a couple of others (the Security Council) get to vote on anything binding. Investing Bolton as the US representative is just like California sending a staunch seccessionist to Washington to wreck any moves towards making the government more democratic and accountable, allowing _all_ states to simply carry on as they please. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137/39 "2005-08-01T17:00:28Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > No shit. I haven’t challenged either of those rules, or attacked the president at all for his appointment. How is anything you just said relevant to the issue of listening to congress, which is what I was commenting on? It’s not at all unfair to characterize acting in accord with the apparent will of a majority of Congress as “listening to Congress.” It’s true that there is a parliamentary rule that can be used to derail a vote by extending debate indefinitely, and it’s true that stopping this move requires a 3/5ths super-majority. But what of it? If a simple majority favors the appointment, how can you fairly deny that the President is “listening to Congress?” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137/40 "2005-08-01T17:02:57Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > There’s nothing illegal or even shady about the appointment itself - though it, and a dozen other little actions like it, really serve to emphasize the grand fiction of Bush’s campaign slogan ‘I’m a uniter, not a divider.’ > > That’s what chafes _my_ shorts about all this. Did President Bush use that slogan at all during the 2004 election? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-installs-bolton-thumbs-nose-at-congress/315137.md?page=3)