# Bush: Iraqis don't appreciate our sacrifices **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 16, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013 "2006-08-16T21:37:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/1 "2006-08-16T21:37:25Z")
[Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/16/washington/16policy.html?_r=2&ref=washington&oref=slogin&oref=slogin) > [@](#): > > More generally, the participants [in a Monday lunch at the Pentagon] said, the president expressed frustration that Iraqis had not come to appreciate the sacrifices the United States had made in Iraq, and was puzzled as to how a recent anti-American rally in support of Hezbollah in Baghdad could draw such a large crowd. “I do think he was frustrated about why 10,000 Shiites would go into the streets and demonstrate against the United States,” said another person who attended. The ungrateful SOBs - after all we’ve done for them! Can he really be _that_ completely out of it? Does he really buy his own Administration’s bullshit that progress is being made over there - in a direction other than down the toilet? > [@](#): > > The White House would not comment on the details of the discussion but a senior official warned against drawing conclusions on what the president thinks based on questions he asked in the process of drawing out the invited guests. I don’t buy this at all. I’m aware that some people ask questions they already know the answer to, to get people started talking, but at least he should be far enough along in his understanding _to ask better questions_ to sound people out. One hardly needs to be a Middle East expert to understand what’s going on here. > [@](#): > > “I sensed a frustration with the lack of progress on the bigger picture of Iraq generally — that we continue to lose a lot of lives, it continues to sap our budget,” said one person who attended the meeting. “The president wants the people in Iraq to get more on board to bring success.” A lot more of them were ready to be ‘on board’ right after we invaded, but rather than bringing them security and democracy, we brought massive looting, [Bremer and the CPA](http://web.archive.org/web/20040403175900/http://www.cpa-iraq.org/index.html), and [Baghdad Year Zero](http://www.harpers.org/BaghdadYearZero.html). It’s a bit late to start winning people over. Not to mention, the people most amenable to our side - secular middle-class people - are leaving the country in droves. Is our President really _that_ dumb?! I thought I was beyond amazement on that score, but reality keeps exceeding expectations. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/2 "2006-08-16T21:41:22Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > The ungrateful SOBs - after all we’ve done for them! Yeah! Where are the flowers and marching bands, goddamnit? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/3 "2006-08-16T21:52:56Z")
And the worst? They marched right past the rubble of what was a freshly-painted schoolhouse! ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/4 "2006-08-16T21:57:45Z")
[Tony Snow Takes exception to the Articles:](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/08/20060816-1.html) > [@](#): > > One other note: A number of newspapers today had – or a couple, The New York Times and L.A. Times – had pieces about the President’s meeting the other day with Iraq scholars. Just a couple of nits to pick with the Times piece – and I have spoken with the notetaker in the meeting, I was in the meeting, I’ve talked to others in the meeting and I’ve talked to all four scholars today, and all, to a person, take exception to a verb or variations of that verb that appear a number of times at the top of the piece, which is that the President is “frustrated.” He’s “frustrated” that the new Iraqi government and the Iraqi people have not shown greater support for the American mission. All the participants said that that did not reflect the meeting they attended. > > “A sense of frustration on the lack of progress on the bigger picture of Iraq, generally” – again, all of those in attendance said that that did not reflect their characterization. And a paragraph that said, “The President expressed frustration that Iraqis have not come to appreciate the sacrifices the United States has made in Iraq and was puzzled as to how a recent anti-American rally in support of Hezbollah in Baghdad could draw such a large crowd.” That was unanimously rejected, as well. > > Now, as I’ve said in the past, we tend not to go into detail about what these conversations – what the people discuss, and I will continue to do that. Obviously, they’re free to discuss what they had. But there were two pieces, and one I think did more – at least reflect in accordance with my notes – and I tried to be careful about this and tried not to ask leading questions, but I did talk to the four scholars and four others who were involved in the meeting, and all shared the same reflections, and their notes reflected these same points of view. > … > Q If the President is not frustrated by the situation in Iraq, what is he? > > MR. SNOW: Determined. > > Q Is he – does he feel like the Maliki government is doing an effective job? > > MR. SNOW: He feels like the Maliki government – look, you’ve got a government that is brand new. As I told you, today you had the Prime Minister going outside the Green Zone, addressing forces, Iraqi forces in Baghdad neighborhoods. This is a guy who has a series of challenges before him with his government, and the President is impressed not only by his determination to get the job done, but the fact is that he is working aggressively to do these things. We don’t expect him to be an overnight success in dealing with all these problems; nobody can be. But the President certainly supports Prime Minister Maliki. > > And the frustration angle is just one that just doesn’t – when you’re facing a situation, you don’t sit around and get frustrated. You figure out how to get the job done. And I’ve said it many times, and I’ll say it because it’s true: The President is somebody who’s intensely practical about these things, and not somebody who sits around and goes, “Nnnnyoo!” – I can’t wait to see you how you transcribe that. (Laughter.) > > Q Do that again. > > Q Who is one of those people? > > Q Rove. Rove does that. > > Q Yes, he does do that. (Laughter.) > > Q Are there such people? (Laughter.) ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/5 "2006-08-16T22:03:04Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [Tony Snow Takes exception to the Articles:](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/08/20060816-1.html) If you want a snow job, you’ve just got to hire the right person. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/6 "2006-08-16T22:12:23Z")
Not to be a grammar nazi or anything, but I think “frustrated” (in the sense used in the pieces Mr. Snow objects to) is an adjective, not a verb. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/7 "2006-08-16T22:15:08Z")
It’s not like he ever claimed to be a man of the people. He’s the decider. And he doesn’t much wanna listen to YOU before he decides. Or me, for that matter. Or anyone else, that I can see… ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/8 "2006-08-16T22:17:15Z")
It just goes to show… try and spread a little democracy, a seed a little capitalism, people go and act like you’ve blown up their houses, shot their friends, destroyed their country’s infrastructure and unleashed a wave of militant homicidal forces intent on filling a power vaccuum. You just can’t win. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/9 "2006-08-16T22:21:30Z")
How could they not be happy about how much safer this has made America? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/10 "2006-08-16T22:26:43Z")
So now we’re Pitting Bush for what someone “sensed” he was thinking? Come on guys, aren’t there enough real things to Pit him for? I notice the OP didn’t include this quote from his article: > [@](#): > > Another person who attended the session said he interpreted Mr. Bush’s comments less as an expression of frustration than as uncertainty over the prospects of the new Iraqi government. “He said he really didn’t quite have a sense yet of how effective the government was,” said this person, who, like several who discussed the session, agreed to speak only anonymously because it was a private lunch. And this probably explains a lot, too: > [@](#): > > One participant in the lunch, Carole A. O’Leary, a professor at American University who is also doing work in Iraq with a State Department grant, said Mr. Bush expressed the view that “the Shia-led government needs to clearly and publicly express the same appreciation for United States efforts and sacrifices as they do in private.” And that makes sense. Like most politicians, I’m sure Iraqi officials say different things in different settings. So Bush wishes they said, in public, more of the things they say privately to US officials. What’s wrong with that? Besides, this appears to be only one small aspect of a meeting in which: > [@](#): > > Participants said Mr. Bush appeared serious and engaged during the lunch, which lasted more than 90 minutes, as the experts went through a lengthy discussion of the political, ethnic, religious and security challenges in Iraq. Hey, that’s longer than I’ve ever seen him able to pay attention! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/11 "2006-08-16T22:32:48Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > So now we’re Pitting Bush for what someone “sensed” he was thinking? I sense you think you can head this thread off… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/12 "2006-08-16T22:43:22Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > I sense you think you can head this thread off… Nah. There are too many people here who are always on board for a good Bushwhacking, not matter the reason. It’s obvious that different people came away from the meeting with different impressions of what was said, as per the OP’s cited article. It would’ve helped if there had been direct quotes from Bush on the subject of “frustration” instead of simply the impression that some people got from his line of questioning. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/13 "2006-08-16T22:46:50Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Hey, that’s longer than I’ve ever seen him able to pay attention! 🙂 Of course with Bush, “paying attention” is hard to distinguish from reminiscing about “slicing the pig.” ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/14 "2006-08-16T23:21:03Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Nah. There are too many people here who are always on board for a good Bushwhacking, not matter the reason. Hey there valet park your high horse buddy. A few of us avoid Bushwhacking threads as much as we can, unless they happen to be really, really funny. My question is not what Bush \*said \* to leave the differing impressions, but what his \*actions \* were. I specifically want to know if anyone at this meeting received a [creepy and innapropriate shoulder rub](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=380227). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/15 "2006-08-16T23:49:19Z")
Let me clue you in here, **Levi**. We Dopers tend to be earnest students of the Sarcastic Method, as a philosophical engine to mine truthiness. As such, it requires some distinction of opinion or attitude, to allow for more robust thinking and to permit one a good bit of crunchy snark ever once in a while. So we have volunteers, willing to step in and…well, not _defend_ Bush, exactly…more like scold us for reflexive Bush-bashing. Apparently, this is a bad thing. To be avoided. Friend **John-Boy** is a volunteer, recruited from that cadre of Dopers who know Bush sucks, but can’t stand liberals regardless. There are a handful of others. Oddly enough, they tend to be libertarians. Best identifying characteristic: you say “Bush teh suxxor!” and they answer “Yeah, you’re right, _but_…”. Through gritted teeth. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/16 "2006-08-17T00:08:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So we have volunteers, willing to step in and…well, not _defend_ Bush, exactly…more like scold us for reflexive Bush-bashing. Apparently, this is a bad thing. To be avoided. Friend **John-Boy** is a volunteer, recruited from that cadre of Dopers who know Bush sucks, but can’t stand liberals regardless. I prefer “apologist”. Short, succinct, and to-the-point. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/17 "2006-08-17T00:15:21Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > So Bush wishes they said, in public, more of the things they say privately to US officials. What’s wrong with that? Were I an Iraqi politician right now, the last thing in the world I would want to do is give my countrymen the impression that I am even more a simple tool of the invaders than they already have. Personally, I’d like to hear Bush, Rumsfeld, et. al., say in public about Iraq what they say in private. Too much to ask, you think? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/18 "2006-08-17T00:22:17Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > … say in public about Iraq what they say in private. Too much to ask, you think? “Dick, you stupid cocksucker! This all your fault! You told me…” “Hey, bite me! Talk to “Goodness Gracious Me” over here, he’s the shithead who…” “Yeah? Who’s the genius who dumped Tenet? We could at least frame him for…” And so forth… ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/19 "2006-08-17T00:25:43Z")
Well, y’know, **elucidator** , what really scares me is the thought that they don’t say that in private; that they say amongst themselves exactly what they say to us; that they really are that dense. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/20 "2006-08-17T00:27:51Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Were I an Iraqi politician right now, the last thing in the world I would want to do is give my countrymen the impression that I am even more a simple tool of the invaders than they already have. Well, there’s lots of territory between “The USA is the greatest!” and “Hezbollah forever!” But your point is well taken. > [@](#): > > Personally, I’d like to hear Bush, Rumsfeld, et. al., say in public about Iraq what they say in private. Too much to ask, you think? I’m afraid they (or at least Bush) really believes that his policy is the best option. Politically, it would be very easy for Bush to start bringing the troops home right now. Republicans running for office in November would be forever grateful. But it doesn’t look like that is going to happen. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013.md?page=2)