# Bush: Iraqis don't appreciate our sacrifices **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 16, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013 "2006-08-16T21:37:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/21 "2006-08-17T00:29:58Z")
Shit! To continue: My standard of evilness has always been Nixon. At least with Nixon, one was certain that behind the bullshitting facade, there were wheels turning. Evilness was being competently carried out. These guys, I’m afraid, could fuck up a wet dream. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/22 "2006-08-17T01:33:45Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Yeah! Where are the flowers and marching bands, goddamnit? [/QUOTE] There was that one guy beating on the big picture of Saddam with his shoe. That was it. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/23 "2006-08-17T01:46:59Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Shit! To continue: My standard of evilness has always been Nixon. At least with Nixon, one was certain that behind the bullshitting facade, there were wheels turning. Evilness was being competently carried out. These guys, I’m afraid, could fuck up a wet dream. [/QUOTE] During the 2000 election, I heard a quote. I forget who said it originally, but it went something like, “It’s better to have an evil ruler than a foolish ruler, because evil at least sometimes sleeps.” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/24 "2006-08-17T02:08:14Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] So now we’re Pitting Bush for what someone “sensed” he was thinking? [/quote] Durn, **John** , it’s right up the page: > [@](#): > > participant **s** said…the president **expressed** frustration that Iraqis had not come to appreciate the sacrifices the United States had made in Iraq So: multiple witnesses say Bush _expressed_ this sentiment. > [@](#): > > I notice the OP didn’t include this quote from his article: They don’t let you quote the entire article here. You notice I _did_ quote the paragraph where a White House official rebutted the key statement. It wasn’t like I was trying to dodge anything. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > One participant in the lunch, Carole A. O’Leary, a professor at American University who is also doing work in Iraq with a State Department grant, said Mr. Bush expressed the view that “the Shia-led government needs to clearly and publicly express the same appreciation for United States efforts and sacrifices as they do in private.” > > And that makes sense. Like most politicians, I’m sure Iraqi officials say different things in different settings. So Bush wishes they said, in public, more of the things they say privately to US officials. What’s wrong with that? It’s one thing to wish the government _could_ say such things, but it betrays great ignorance to say they _need to_ say them. Bush thinks they _need to_ sign their own death warrants? Gawdalmighty, save us from this freakin’ idiot. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/25 "2006-08-17T02:16:54Z")
Would make a great photo op, Bush moving in to plant a Lieberman smack on Maliki, who screams in panic and runs… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/26 "2006-08-17T02:23:15Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Shit! To continue: My standard of evilness has always been Nixon. [/QUOTE] Me too. For nearly 30 years after August 9, 1974, I assumed I wouldn’t live to see a President more evil than Nixon. Then one morning a few years back, I suddenly realized I already had. > [@](#): > > At least with Nixon, one was certain that behind the bullshitting facade, there were wheels turning. Evilness was being competently carried out. > > These guys, I’m afraid, could fuck up a wet dream. They could indeed. Two differences between Nixon and the Bush crew, because Bush & Co. can carry out evil quite well too: (1) Nixon took the trouble to see that the government as a whole ran reasonably well, but Bush’s crew really doesn’t care if it works, if it doesn’t have anything to do with shoving more boodle to the moneyed interests, or maintaining political power. As blackhearted as Nixon was, he would have been terminally embarrassed by a Katrina-style governmental fuckup. (2) Nixon’s loss of connection with reality was all about the Kennedys; he could see the larger world clearly. Bush’s crew is the reverse: they see domestic politics with incredible clarity, but that’s as far as their vision extends. They don’t see anything else worth shit. Sometimes I think they believe they can buffalo their international adversaries - the Sunni insurgents, the Iranians, Hezbollah - in the same way they can buffalo the Democrats and the press. I don’t know if that’s true, but it sure looks like it an awful lot of the time. Projecting ‘resolve’ has served them well in battling the Dems and rolling the pundits, but it’s been a damned sight less successful with Kim Jong Il, or anyone else on the international stage. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/27 "2006-08-17T02:37:34Z")
Kim Jong Il doesn’t spend a lot of time worrying about gay marriage. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/28 "2006-08-17T02:41:52Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Kim Jong Il doesn’t spend a lot of time worrying about gay marriage. [/QUOTE] cite??? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/29 "2006-08-17T02:46:24Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Yeah! Where are the flowers and marching bands, goddamnit? [/QUOTE] I suddenly recalled [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=177376&highlight=janeane) thread from 2003, right after we rolled into Baghdad. > [@Satisfying Andy Licious](#): > > Urgent action is needed to save Janeane Garafalo’s knees! She’s such a cutey. I adore her. But it seems that her lovely dimpled knees are in deadly danger. She was asked in an interview what her reaction would be if she were wrong about Iraq, if Iraqis welcomed allied soldiers with flowers and kisses. And she said: > > GARAFALO: I would be so willing to say, “I’m sorry”. I hope to God that I can be made a buffoon of, that people will say, “You were wrong. You were a fatalist”. And I will go to the White House on my knees on cut glass and say, “Hey, you and Thomas Friedman were right… I shouldn’t have doubted you”… 'Member the video footage which showed a (small) crowd cheering the US troops? It was what made a lot of Bush supporters say “See? They \*are \*grateful we rescued them!” ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/30 "2006-08-17T03:05:19Z")
Anyone else creeped-out by the unironic use of “domino effect” by a scholar quoted in the article? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/31 "2006-08-17T11:19:41Z")
I dunno what Bush meant to say without seeing all the original words, but by oure coincidence I watched a tape last night of Dennis Miller saying “the Iraqis aren’t loyal enough to America.” Jesus wept. I can’t believe ANYONE would say something that stupid. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/32 "2006-08-17T11:46:20Z")
[Bush is crap](http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article1219716.ece) agrees UK’s deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/33 "2006-08-17T16:59:40Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] So: multiple witnesses say Bush _expressed_ this sentiment. They don’t let you quote the entire article here. You notice I _did_ quote the paragraph where a White House official rebutted the key statement. It wasn’t like I was trying to dodge anything. [/QUOTE] It’s definitely in character for Bush to talk the way that everyone is assuming, but you are jumping to conclusions. Attacking him for something described by someone else in a way that could be interpreted differently is kinda weak. If you’re just having some fun at Bush’s expense, as **elucidator** seems to be saying, that’s one thing, but it doesn’t stand up as an actual criticism of Bush. Especially since finding substantial things to criticize Bush for is like shooting a fish in the barrel of the gun that’s doing the shooting. This is the second pit thread in a row where I’ve come in to defend **John Mace**. I hope I’m not creeping him out or anything. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/34 "2006-08-17T17:23:25Z")
[QUOTE=Talon Karrde] It’s definitely in character for Bush to talk the way that everyone is assuming, but you are jumping to conclusions. Attacking him for something described by someone else in a way that could be interpreted differently is kinda weak. [/quote] Given that no official transcript is going to be posted on [whitehouse.gov](http://whitehouse.gov), we have to make do with what we have. The testimony of two witnesses, the Bible tells us, is valid; apparently there were that many. Fine for you to defend **John** , but if you’re gonna do that, could you explain how to read the O’Leary quote in a better light? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/35 "2006-08-17T17:45:37Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] [Bush is crap](http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article1219716.ece) agrees UK’s deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott. [/QUOTE] Unfortunately, that’s a classic example of “takes one to know one” … ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/36 "2006-08-17T18:05:59Z")
You can’t fix stupid. [QUOTE=Miller] During the 2000 election, I heard a quote. I forget who said it originally, but it went something like, “It’s better to have an evil ruler than a foolish ruler, because evil at least sometimes sleeps.” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/37 "2006-08-17T18:07:25Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Given that no official transcript is going to be posted on [whitehouse.gov](http://whitehouse.gov) [/QUOTE] I noticed there was nothing about it on [whitehouse.com](http://whitehouse.com), either. > [@](#): > > we have to make do with what we have. The testimony of two witnesses, the Bible tells us, is valid; apparently there were that many. > > Fine for you to defend **John** , but if you’re gonna do that, could you explain how to read the O’Leary quote in a better light? At the very beginning of the war, when everyone was talking about using Iraq o create an exemplary democracy, to show the Arab world that representative government was possible, I asked a co-worker, “So we’re going to create an Anti-American, Anti-Israel government?” What else would a democratically elected government in Iraq be? ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/38 "2006-08-17T18:09:09Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Given that no official transcript is going to be posted on [whitehouse.gov](http://whitehouse.gov), we have to make do with what we have. The testimony of two witnesses, the Bible tells us, is valid; apparently there were that many. Fine for you to defend **John** , but if you’re gonna do that, could you explain how to read the O’Leary quote in a better light? [/QUOTE] All right, I missed that quote. My mind kind of blanked as I read that part. Before that I didn’t see any substance to your attack, but now I do. The most charitable way I can read the O’Leary quote is that apparently Bush does have reason to believe that the US is appreciated by some (although it could be just that the government is grateful to Bush for putting them in power). I guess he figures then that a lot of Iraqis really are grateful to us, enough to make a difference. Either he really isn’t all that bright, or his mind is clouded by wishful thinking. And you have a good point about why it’s foolish to expect open support. But that’s different from the arrogance of saying something like “Those ingrates don’t appreciate what we’ve done for them”. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/39 "2006-08-17T18:16:12Z")
Is it really so strange that considering the track record this president has, that people are predisposed to believe just about anything about him. I mean really, did you ever think people would take the same forgiving attitude of our president that most people reserve for their cousin with crippling Down’s syndrome? [QUOTE=John Mace] Nah. There are too many people here who are always on board for a good Bushwhacking, not matter the reason. It’s obvious that different people came away from the meeting with different impressions of what was said, as per the OP’s cited article. It would’ve helped if there had been direct quotes from Bush on the subject of “frustration” instead of simply the impression that some people got from his line of questioning. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013/40 "2006-08-17T18:23:34Z")
[QUOTE=wring] cite??? 😉 [/QUOTE] > **[LGBTQ rights in North Korea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_rights_in_North_Korea)** > > Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer (LGBTQ) people in North Korea may face social challenges due to their sexuality or gender identity. Homosexuality is not illegal in statute, but instances of criminalization and execution for homosexuality have been reported. Other LGBTQ rights in the country are not explicitly addressed in North Korean law. Homosexuality and transgender issues are not formally addressed in the country's law. According to the United States Department of State, no pr... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-iraqis-dont-appreciate-our-sacrifices/369013.md?page=3)