# "Bush is a crook" says Mr. Krugman **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2002, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087 "2002-07-02T19:33:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2002, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087/521 "2002-07-26T16:15:45Z")
I’d rather _not_ see the “who was nastier” discussion continue, **Scylla** ; I think it’s been rendered pointless. On the other hand, I’d certainly like **Tejota** ’s involvement in the discussion to continue, as I find myself impressed with **T** ’s ability to frame an argument. I think there are valid points of debate which have made, and which deserve further treatment, just not in this thread. But I think the _fights_ which have been going on tend to obscure the valid points of all the participants. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2002, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087/522 "2002-07-26T16:28:01Z")
Really wish you hadn’t said that. Really. Your demand for a retraction from Tejota is ludicrous. Simply ridiculous. (Are you the all-time champeen at retraction demands? I’d bet on it.) Your Self Portrait in Flattering Light is, for the most part, factually accurate. But _Lordy!_ the spin! Way I figure it, as soon as you tried to sucker me with your “question”, all bets were off. If I game you back and you lose, you cannot then don the umpires shirt and penalize me five yards. Your claims to rhetorical integrity would have some weight if you had said “Tut, tut! Not the done thing, don’t you know. Not quite cricket.” and gone on from there. But you didn’t, did you, buckaroo? You went totally ballistic, tearing your hair, beating your head against the wall and screaming “Liar!” at the top of your lungs. How many times? 10? 15? And then you try to recruit me to support you against **Tejota**? Now, I’m just an ol’ country boy, but I know when someone is peeing on my shoes and trying to tell me its raining. Now, if your recent tone is a permanent change, all well and good. But trying to paint yourself as a paragon of rhetorical civility at **Tejota’s** expense is just plain wrong. May the **Mandy** be with you. ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2002, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087/523 "2002-07-26T16:28:35Z")
Five thousand pages ago on this thread I posted an old _Mother Jones_ story on the Bush bros. There are all kinds of children of privilege. It doesn’t necessarily have to play badly. Look at someone like JFK, Jr. who, I think most people would agree, was a very talented, decent guy with many admirable qualities. When I look at the Bush sons, I have to wonder how Barbara didn’t manage to do better. Even without any indictable offense, the W. story will play badly now because he (and other family members) have persistently been involved in the kind of shady you-scratch-my-back cronyism and insider self-dealing (loans, Aloha scams, options, corporate welfare a la the Rangers deal) that is now biting average Americans on their rears. I want to see it on the cover of _Newsweek_. But, fwiw, that’s just not true of every privileged scion of a famous family; Americans have no reflexive dislike of wealth and privilege. Had the press been more forthcoming on W’s background before the election–had they given it half the attention they gave to Gore’s “exaggerations”–Bush would probably have lost _at least_ 600 votes in the state of Florida. For whatever reason, American journalists were just not feeling the pain of whoever was hurting in the bubble economy; and so they were not interested in writing much about speculative America and the dangers of “infectious greed,” or in making clear exactly who George W. Bush was. We just got a lot of stuff about what a nice guy he was. Just saw **xeno** on preview. What he said. Well I never bought the warm and fuzzy. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2002, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087/524 "2002-07-26T16:30:42Z")
> [@](#): > > But in fair defense of Bush. He didn’t decide who’s son he would be. The fact that he’s achild of privilege is neither a credit nor a detriment to his character. It’s just a fact. He didn’t choose his parents, that’s true. But tell me, when do we start counting his adult reliances on privelege and indulgence as marks on his character? Many of Bush’s political opponents have been children of privelege as well (notably, Mr. Gore); have they all been so dependent on their situations of birth for their success? Arguably, I think, to an appreciably lesser (and more ethically justifiable) degree. YMMV. [more speculation] But the privelege issue isn’t the underlying political ugliness I think Americans will find important. It’s the abuse of trust issues, at Harken and later as Texas Governor, and also the image of backroom business skullduggery invoked when we look at Harken. (And just wait until the media starts covering the sweetheart Rangers dealings in detail.) [/speculation] ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2002, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087/525 "2002-07-26T16:30:42Z")
Fair enough, but I hope you appreciate my stance as well. ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2002, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087/526 "2002-07-26T16:38:06Z")
Right **xeno** –that’s what I meant above. Privilege on its own is no problemo. Abuse of privilege is seriously bad karma. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2002, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087/527 "2002-07-26T16:46:46Z")
Yeah, **Mandy** , we’re making the same points at the same time. Wanna go on a rotation schedule? (_Naah_; the free-for-all’s much more fun, I think.) ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2002, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087/528 "2002-07-26T16:54:25Z")
I’m just about to take a much overdue work break ;). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2002, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087/529 "2002-07-26T16:56:06Z")
I don’t think the problem with revealing Jr.s character or lack thereof lies with the reporters. Basicly, they have to sell stories. If nobody wants to read about Jr.'s summer job clubbing baby harp seals to death, or the mysterious disappearance of neighborhood pets in his youth (note: I am _shamelessly_ making this up) then they’re stuck. Its the “Reagan effect”. American’s desperately wanted to believe in his avuncular charms and his steady gaze. News stories that contradict that were not welcome, and therefore couldn’t be _sold_. They had the same response to a similar image concocted by same spin-wizards with Jr. Jr.s tenure as TX Gov. is all public record, and is mostly apalling. No other word comes close. His attempt to keep the Reagan papers under wraps is far more suspicious and noteworthy than any of his shady Harken deals. But you can’t tell the public what they adamantly will not hear! The ugly truth is that when poor folks are getting shafted, its ho-hum bore yawn. But when upper-middle folks with fat 401K’s get screwed…that’s a whole 'nother kettle of fish. **Mandy** I love _Mother Jones_. I just can’t stand to read _Mother Jones_. Everytime I do I find myself calculating the driving time to the Canadian border. (6 hours fifteen minutes, Minnesota style. About 2 hours, Texas style) ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087/530 "2002-08-01T16:46:25Z")
I just noticed this item on the CNN website: [In '89, Bush opposed Harken overseas subsidiary](http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/08/01/bush.harken.overseas/index.html) From the article: > [@](#): > > White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said that the Texas-based Harken set up the Cayman Islands subsidiary as part of a deal with the Bahrain government to drill in the waters off the Arab islands. > > \ > > When pressed as to whether there was a tax benefit to Harken in the setup of the overseas subsidiary, he said: “In this specific example, no oil was produced, so I think it’s a moot question.” > > President Bush, when asked Wednesday about the Cayman Islands subsidiary, said: “I think there was an issue over an arrangement with Bahrain, a drilling venture there, which I opposed, as you may recall, when I was a director of the company.” > > Fleischer said the president’s opposition as a Harken director is a matter of public record. Now, I’m pretty sure Bush didn’t mean _exactly_ what he said, as that would mean he opposed the Bahrain venture entirely (a venture which was exactly the sort of thing he was invited on board to promote). I believe he meant to say “I opposed creation of the Cayman subsidiary.” But the language is ambiguous. (Apparently, “moral clarity” doesn’t include clarity of speech.) Fortunately, the always trustworthy Ari Fleischer informs us that the President’s opposition is “a matter of public record.” Unfortunately, a search through all the documents linked previously in this thread has revealed no information. Can anyone corroborate this matter of record? Also in CNN today, here’s an article discussing the Bush administration’s immediate [creative interpretation](http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/07/31/bush.leahy.corporate/index.html) of whistleblower protection afforded by the new corporate reform act. ISTM the administration very much wants an interpretation which only allows whistleblowing _upon request_. Sort of “you can tell Congress all about your company’s dirty dealings whenever you want —assuming Congress specifically asks you about them.” ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2002, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087/531 "2002-08-02T01:55:00Z")
[More Harken Documents](http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/report.asp?ReportID=456&L1=10&L2=10&L3=0&L4=0&L5=0) on [publicintegrity.org](http://publicintegrity.org) Seems I’m not the only one who wonders where to find the “public record” of Bush’s opposition. But I’m sure it’ll turn up. The Pres sounded quite confident when he told us he was against the deal. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2002, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087/532 "2002-08-03T03:03:01Z")
> [@](#): > > **Bush’s Baseball Stake** > To the Editor: > > Paul Krugman (column, July 16) says George W. Bush’s investment in the Texas Rangers entitled him to $2.3 million from the baseball team’s sale. But, Mr. Krugman writes, “his partners voluntarily gave up some of their share, and Mr. Bush received 12 percent of the proceeds — $14.9 million. So a group of businessmen, presumably with some interest in government decisions, gave a sitting governor a $12 million gift. Shouldn’t that have raised a few eyebrows?” > > We were among Mr. Bush’s partners. In 1989, when we bought the team, Mr. Bush became the co-general partner with Edward Rose. > > At that time, the two general partners were granted a 15 percent share (Mr. Bush received 10 percent and Mr. Rose, 5 percent) in the investment, after each investor got back his investment plus interest. This is a standard limited-partnership structure. At the time, Mr. Bush was a private citizen, not governor of Texas. > > When we sold the team in 1998, Mr. Bush received his 10 percent share. This was not “a $12 million gift” to “a sitting governor.” > > Mr. Bush had a good idea and the ability to make it happen. He was a dedicated manager and investor, exactly what we hope for in our business leaders. > TOM A. BERNSTEIN > ROLAND W. BETTS > New York, July 22, 2002 [http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/02/opinion/L02KRUG.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/02/opinion/L02KRUG.html) So Bush was not a sitting governor and the money he received was not a gift. Krugman is a :wally ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2002, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087/533 "2002-08-03T14:57:44Z")
> [@](#): > > August 3, 2002 > To the Editor: > > Paul Krugman (column, July 30) correctly identifies an error in a recent press release from the Office of Management and Budget, then converts it to a “lie.” > > The error, retracted weeks ago when noticed, assigned a true number to the wrong time frame. The 2001 tax relief law had a very small, less than 10 percent, effect on the change in our fiscal picture from 2001 to 2002, and this was accurately stated in our Midsession Review. > > My office’s first press release mistakenly applied the 10 percent figure to the 10-year estimated surplus, rather than to 2002. > > Mr. Krugman’s description vilifies, rather than rebuts, those with whom he disagrees. > > TRENT D. DUFFY > Communications Director > Office of Management and Budget > Washington, July 31, 2002 [http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/03/opinion/L03KRUG.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/03/opinion/L03KRUG.html) ---
**Author:** ![Ace\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Ace\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace_Face)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087/534 "2002-08-06T05:03:17Z")
Yes folks, it’s the thread that won’t die (sorry). Regarding the OMB “retraction”, Krugman has this to say in his most recent column: > [@](#): > > It depends on what you mean by the word “retract.” As far as anyone knows, O.M.B. didn’t issue a revised statement, conceding that it had misinformed reporters, and giving the right numbers. It simply threw the embarrassing document down the memory hole. As Brendan Nyhan pointed out in Salon, if you go to the O.M.B.'s Web site now, you find a press release dated July 12 that is not the release actually handed out on that date. There is no indication that anything has been changed, but the bullet point on sources of the deficit is gone. > **[Opinion | The Memory Hole (Published 2002)](https://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/06/opinion/the-memory-hole.html)** > > Paul Krugman Op-Ed column holds Pres Bush made unqualified campaign pledge not to run budget deficit and is now falsely claiming that he laid out criteria for running deficit when visiting Chicago during 2000 campaign; holds two-phase structure of... Pretty creepy, if you ask me. But Bush’s “trifecta” remark is even worse. There’s also a response from Krugman regarding the Texas Rangers contract here (first link): [http://www.pkarchive.org/](http://www.pkarchive.org/) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087/535 "2002-08-06T05:21:30Z")
Permit me to summarize Krugman’s response to the Texas Rangers NYT letter. 1. It would be nice to see that 1989 contract. 2. It seems unusual to grant a failed businessman a 10% ownership share when he only puts up 2% of the capital. Unless that businessman happens to be the son of a sitting President AND is an active participant in crony capitalism. 3. [It’s unclear to flowbark whether GWB received 12% or 10% at the end.] 4. Krugman, “We don’t have the full story of Bush’s career. I have reason to believe that there is a lot more to the Harken story, and also a lot about cronyism during his years as governor. But this isn’t really about finding smoking guns. It’s about seeing what lies behind Bush’s pose as a regular guy, someone who shares the concerns of ordinary people.” ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087/536 "2002-08-06T05:52:42Z")
It turns out that **Krugman** was right after all. This link, from [Spinsanity](http://www.spinsanity.org/post.html?2002_08_04_archive.html#85316637) exposes the OMB’s claim of a ‘mistake’ for the lie it is. > [@](#): > > But he’s spinning again. The original release actually claims that the tax cut “generated less than 15% of the change” in the 2002-2011 surplus, not 10%. So OMB’s error in the original release was apparently twofold – the Mid-Session Review that the release was previewing states very clearly that the tax cut’s accounted “for less than 10 percent of the $448 billion total shift in expected surpluses for 2002.” And so it becomes clear why Duffy uses the strange locution “true number” – “less than 10 percent” is “less than 15%”, so the number in the original release was technically true for the change from 2001 to 2002. But it wasn’t accurate, as he wants you to think. ---
**Author:** ![Semp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Semp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Semp)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087/537 "2002-08-06T23:03:10Z")
Krugman was just on CNN’s Moneyline and in the interview he said something to the effect of “It doesn’t look like Bush did anything necessarily illegal.” I’d have to wait for the transcript to get the exact wording, but he wasn’t as loony (politcally I mean, I don’t think anyone has said he’s got mental problems) as some might portray him to be. The crux of his argument as I heard it was that Bush was not a good businessman and that the Republicans portray him as a man of character and principals that his history betrays. Anybody else see it, and is my summary correct? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087/538 "2002-08-06T23:14:29Z")
I didn’t see the show, but I don’t think his message, as you summarized it, is substantially different than that he’s put forth in his columns. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2002, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087/539 "2002-08-06T23:40:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tejota \* > \*\*It turns out that **Krugman** was right after all. \*\* No, Krugman is still wrong. He accused the agency of “lying” – i.e., deliberately misstating. That charge is unsupported. Spinsanity says that the agency understated their mistake and that they ought to have made the correction more apparent. However, Spinsanity doesn’t say that the error was intentional, and they don’t dispute that the error had been corrected before Krugman’s column appeared. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2002, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087/540 "2002-08-07T00:27:52Z")
Actually, as far as I can tell, Krugman used the phrase, “deception”. In my experience, the root “lie” tends to raise eyebrows and is thus avoided in polite company. IMHO, changing a news release from an earlier date without indicating that it has been edited is indeed a “deception”. Furthermore, I believe that it is fair to characterize it as Orwellian. I urge GWB’s OMB to come clean and rectify this situation by placing a full disclaimer at the bottom of the July 12th press release (web version). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-crook-says-mr-krugman/117087.md?page=28)