# Bush is a detail wonk? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2005, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252 "2005-01-23T16:10:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252/41 "2005-01-24T00:17:13Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > -Reagan was talking in the context of global warming when it came to “trees pollute more than cars” in that it is very true trees produce many times the greenhouse gases of cars (98% of all greenhouse gases come from the natural wrold.) > > You can obviously be one of the ones who believes that extra 2% nudge is what “ruins the world” (aka causes a marginal rise in temperature over 100 years) but that still doesn’t justify saying the comment was completely wrong. No, that is called being either uninformed (read: stupid) or being intellectually dishonest, which, when it comes from the Leader of the Free World, is if not worse than, as bad as a bold faced lie. ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252/42 "2005-01-24T00:21:09Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I figure you know EXACTLY what I was getting at, but I’ll play along. If the left hadn’t been yammering and screeching about the ‘fact’ that Bush lied, then they would have been free to pin the responsibility for being WRONG about Iraq squarely on him…as should have been done. However, when the central issue came down to ‘he lied’ it was stunningly easy to plausably argue that he was wrong and point to all the OTHER folks who were wrong too…such as Mr. Kerry himself. The RESPONSIBILTY was Bush’s…but IMO the left and the Dems pissed away their chance to use it against him because of their own hysteria. YMMV 'luci…thats my own assessment. Actually, we were doing both (it is possible to say two things, of course). A segment of the population neither knew nor cared to know, and sometimes purposely avoided, what was the truth. Not much you can do about that. It is like reasoning with a retarded donkey. > [@](#): > > You are absolutely right…he’s laughing at me too since I voted Badnarik. I just couldn’t BELIEVE that Bush would win a second term, even though I was watching the process by which the Dems snatched defeat from the grim jaws of victory. Yep, pretty depressing scenario. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252/43 "2005-01-24T00:27:10Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > Actually, we were doing both (it is possible to say two things, of course). A segment of the population neither knew nor cared to know, and sometimes purposely avoided, what was the truth. Not much you can do about that. It is like reasoning with a retarded donkey. The meme was the ‘fact’ that Bush lied, Demorian. Everything else got pretty much drowned out in the uproar. It was a meme that didn’t get much traction except with the converted of course, which is why it failed. I think that pinning responsibility on the president WOULD have gotten traction without the hysteria, but we’ll never know. > [@Demorian](#): > > Yep, pretty depressing scenario. Whats depressing to me is that I have serious doubts the Dems/Left learned a god damn thing from this election. I guess we’ll see in 2006 if they manage to get back a few seats…and again in 2008. I’ll be interested to see if they wise up and run a moderate or do what the seeming majority on this board want and run to the left…and give the 'Pubs another 4-8 years in office. We’ll see. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252/44 "2005-01-24T00:44:41Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > The meme was the ‘fact’ that Bush lied, Demorian. Everything else got pretty much drowned out in the uproar. It was a meme that didn’t get much traction except with the converted of course, which is why it failed. I think that pinning responsibility on the president WOULD have gotten traction without the hysteria, but we’ll never know. I don’t think the HELIED meme was that loud or universal. THe mass media barely covered it. > [@](#): > > Whats depressing to me is that I have serious doubts the Dems/Left learned a god damn thing from this election. I guess we’ll see in 2006 if they manage to get back a few seats…and again in 2008. I’ll be interested to see if they wise up and run a moderate or do what the seeming majority on this board want and run to the left…and give the 'Pubs another 4-8 years in office. We’ll see. They need something resembling a platform, first. The GOP is making great progress with its Christian America platform, since most moderates and dems also happen to be Christians. Beyond that, the left just hurts itself too much. It doesn’t even have support of the blue-collars and the poor. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252/45 "2005-01-24T00:56:14Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > No, that is called being either uninformed (read: stupid) or being intellectually dishonest, which, when it comes from the Leader of the Free World, is if not worse than, as bad as a bold faced lie. Or it could just be he didn’t use a term as specific as he would like? Couldn’t possibly be that? Everytime I mispronounce a word, I guess it’s not just a slip of the tongue, but I actually think the word is pronounced that way. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252/46 "2005-01-24T00:58:13Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > I don’t think the HELIED meme was that loud or universal. THe mass media barely covered it. If by ‘mass media’ you mean the traditional news outlets, well of COURSE they didn’t…whatever their bias (and I’m not making any claims here) they have to at least APPEAR to be unbiased about such things and they were smart enough to realize there was absolutely no proof that he lied. However, the meme’s for this election came mainly from the various web sources, blogs, etc. And THESE, at least the anti-Bush ones, were pretty universal in their HELIEDHELIEDHELIED! rant. So I disagree…it was both loud and fairly universal. I think you could ask just about any American and they would tell you, whichever side they come down on, that the HELIED meme was out there. > [@Demorian](#): > > They need something resembling a platform, first. The GOP is making great progress with its Christian America platform, since most moderates and dems also happen to be Christians. Beyond that, the left just hurts itself too much. It doesn’t even have support of the blue-collars and the poor. The Dems certainly need to figure out something, one way or the other. Myself, I think they need to marginalize the left and do a Clinton…run to the center on moderate centrist grounds (well, Clinton in his second term anyway). He showed the way to win…and they convinced themselves he was wrong and did it their own way again. I think if the Dems run to the left (as many on this board want) we’ll continue to see Dem loses…unless the Pubs monumentally screw the pouch of course. Always a possibility I guess but not something I’d count on. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252/47 "2005-01-24T00:58:13Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Or it could just be he didn’t use a term as specific as he would like? Couldn’t possibly be that? Isn’t that reaching towards being intelectually dishonest? ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252/48 "2005-01-24T01:00:38Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > If by ‘mass media’ you mean the traditional news outlets, well of COURSE they didn’t…whatever their bias (and I’m not making any claims here) they have to at least APPEAR to be unbiased about such things and they were smart enough to realize there was absolutely no proof that he lied. However, the meme’s for this election came mainly from the various web sources, blogs, etc. And THESE, at least the anti-Bush ones, were pretty universal in their HELIEDHELIEDHELIED! rant. So I disagree…it was both loud and fairly universal. I think you could ask just about any American and they would tell you, whichever side they come down on, that the HELIED meme was out there. Come on, how many voting Republicans do you think read liberal blogs? > [@](#): > > The Dems certainly need to figure out something, one way or the other. Myself, I think they need to marginalize the left and do a Clinton…run to the center on moderate centrist grounds (well, Clinton in his second term anyway). He showed the way to win…and they convinced themselves he was wrong and did it their own way again. I think if the Dems run to the left (as many on this board want) we’ll continue to see Dem loses…unless the Pubs monumentally screw the pouch of course. Always a possibility I guess but not something I’d count on. That and finding someone with some charisma would help, too. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252/49 "2005-01-24T01:09:58Z")
Back to the matter at hand, I read that article when I was in line at the supermarket and found it unconvincing. It seems quite clear to me that Bush is not stupid, but he certainly is not very smart, at least compared to someone like Carter, who clearly is quite a smart fellow who was detail oriented. Some articles debunking the Bush the detail man spin: [President Bush has long prided himself for focusing on big goals rather than on niggling details and delegating significant responsibility to his aides.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7869-2004Jun1.html) A variety of presidential advisers and scholars said the White House’s failure to recognize the significance of the warnings points to flaws in Bush’s approach to governing that also could have contributed to the administration’s inadequate planning and inaccurate presentations in the run-up to the Iraq war. (WaPo, reg may be req) [What’s the secret to George W. Bush’s political success?](http://www.jsonline.com/news/nat/mar03/124065.asp) In a new book, Don Kettl of the University of Wisconsin-Madison argues it’s the carefully honed management style Bush first learned in business school. “Focus on the big issues, decide on the major strategy questions and delegate the details. He’s practiced it more than any president ever has,” writes Kettl, a political scientist who studies the art of governing. [Bush managed by walking the office and visiting with employees in informal, one-on-one settings.](http://espn.go.com/mlb/bush/wednesday.html) He cared more about the big picture than the small details. He preferred specific recommendations to a series of options. Reprising his prep school days at Phillips Academy in Andover, Mass., he was more head cheerleader than executive director. He almost always delegated responsibility and almost never questioned the decisions of those he empowered. (interesting article by ESPN, about Bush running the Texas Rangers) [Former White House speechwriter David Frum defended Bush’s decision-making style, saying it encourages timely action and definitive judgments. Unlike some previous presidents, Bush doesn’t get bogged down in trivial details and doesn’t let debates drag on endlessly without making a decision.](http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/8277263.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp) So, does one Newsweek article debunk all of that? Nonsense. The Bush bashers here may go overboard in calling the man incompetent and evil, but I don’t get the conservatives here vaguely trying to make Bush into someone with the intellectual capabilities of Carter. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252/50 "2005-01-24T01:22:15Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > Isn’t that reaching towards being intelectually dishonest? As I said, he may have not used a term that was as specific as he would have _liked_ meaning in retrospect maybe he meant to use a more specific term. Which would imply a mistake. And mistakes don’t = lies. That’s a very false connection people try to make all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252/51 "2005-01-24T01:28:43Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Some articles debunking the Bush the detail man spin: > > \ > > So, does one Newsweek article debunk all of that? Nonsense. I think this is exactly the point of the Newsweek article. The perception of Bush as a disengaged figurehead has been so omnipresent that it’s snowballed beyond the truth. The perception of Bush as uninvolved and unintellectual has become a caricature of the truth. People imagine Bush sitting in the Oval Office and stacking books into stairs for his Slinky while the business of government goes on around him. Suddenly, some reporter gets a glimpse of what Bush is actually like, and _compared to the public’s current perception of him_, he’s involved and wonkish. Compared to prior Presidents, not so much. But compared to the baseline perception of him, it’s like a revelation. > [@Revenman](#): > > It seems quite clear to me that Bush is not stupid, but he certainly is not very smart, at least compared to someone like Carter, who clearly is quite a smart fellow who was detail oriented. > > \ > > The Bush bashers here may go overboard in calling the man incompetent and evil, but I don’t get the conservatives here vaguely trying to make Bush into someone with the intellectual capabilities of Carter. There’s no question that Carter was a brilliant man intellectually. But he’s a pretty good example of how intelligence and Presidential capacity are not necessarily directly related. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252/52 "2005-01-24T01:29:18Z")
I swear, you guys are intellectually bulletproof. I don’t know how many times we have posted direct, verifiable lies, you look at them, nod your head and say “Well, do you have any proof that he lied?” So we post them again, and you read them again, nod again and say “Well, of course, being wrong isn’t the same as actually lying, you know. Can you prove that he lied?” Its like chunking snowballs at a panzer. If you’re not going to pay attention to proof, would you mind not asking for it? Its gets on our nerves and it annoys the hamsters. Just go ahead and say it: “GeeDubya said it, I believe it, and that settles it.” ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252/53 "2005-01-24T01:41:44Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I swear, you guys are intellectually bulletproof. I don’t know how many times we have posted direct, verifiable lies, you look at them, nod your head and say “Well, do you have any proof that he lied?” So we post them again, and you read them again, nod again and say “Well, of course, being wrong isn’t the same as actually lying, you know. Can you prove that he lied?” > > Its like chunking snowballs at a panzer. If you’re not going to pay attention to proof, would you mind not asking for it? Its gets on our nerves and it annoys the hamsters. Just go ahead and say it: “GeeDubya said it, I believe it, and that settles it.” I’ve been having a very bad day, I feel like crap, and while I usually think **elucidator** goes a little over the edge with venom, I’m just going to say ditto. A Democrat says anything mildly innacurate and it is a dirty lie, or a waffle, or whatever. Kerry’s military record was shredded to PIECES looking for a speck of dirt that a wildly estatic Right Wing would leap and kick up their heels for joy, as if they had just found a new oil field. A Republican says something that at best is grossly misleading and innacurate, but meant for consumption by a trusting populace, and it is just a little mistake not worthy of note. An “oops, sorry,” no matter how many people it gets killed or bills passed or whatever the goal is. The mistruth only needs to last for as long as it takes Congress to vote, then it is written off as a mistake, oh well. Oh, and the whole time, they are complaining about double standards. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252/54 "2005-01-24T01:51:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Just go ahead and say it: “GeeDubya said it, I believe it, and that settles it.” I’ll do that just as soon as you admit: “There’s no evidence that Bush actually lied, but I think he sucks, so I’m just going to say he lied as if I know it’s true . . . which is uncannily similar to how I say Bush lied, but whatever.” ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252/55 "2005-01-24T02:42:36Z")
[Key lawmakers cast doubt on detail wonk’s characterization of Social Security ‘crisis’.](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=615&e=6&u=/nm/20050123/pl_nm/retirement_bush_dc) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252/56 "2005-01-24T03:09:48Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > There’s no question that Carter was a brilliant man intellectually. But he’s a pretty good example of how intelligence and Presidential capacity are not necessarily directly related. No doubt. I’m convinced that Harry Truman is the dumbest president I know of, but I’d rather have him than Bush any day of the week. BTW, that ESPN article says that Bush memorized the batting averages of his players. Perhaps that’s the sort of “mastering the details” that the Newsweek article is trying to pass off as wonkish, but, well, it just isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252/57 "2005-01-24T03:16:38Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > I’ll do that just as soon as you admit: "There’s no evidence that Bush actually lied Here we have an important divide; some of us know he lied, some of us are in denial. I will not lie and say that Bush did not lie. You will not lie and say that Dear Leader isn’t wholesome goodness through and through. ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252/58 "2005-01-24T03:20:15Z")
OK, **AQO** , I’ll give you another chance. It would be simple for Mr. Bush to prove that he didn’t lie. All he has to do is share the intelligence that was the proof that we had found WMDs. Simple gesture. Shouldn’t be too hard. If he does that, and proves that it was an honest mistake that anyone could make given the same intelligence, then it isn’t a lie. As long as we have no further evidence, we have to go with what we have - he said “we found WMDs” several times, but even after invading, no WMDs ever appeared. That’s pretty clear and simple. Did he lose the WMDs? ---
**Author:** ![buns3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c89c15/32.png) [@buns3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buns3000)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252/59 "2005-01-24T06:27:55Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > He may have not listened as he should have to dissenting opinions, So he has only recently developed his supposed aversion to “yes” men, then? > [@xtisme](#): > > he may have thought the evidence was more solid than it was… Hmmm, doesn’t sound much like a “details” man to me. > [@xtisme](#): > > but I really think that the majority consensus was that Iraq had WMD somewhere. So what? > [@xtisme](#): > > It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad, but I really think you folks brought this shit on yourself. How? > [@xtisme](#): > > That a president as weak as Bush, with all the problems of his presidency AND an unpopular war managed to get re-elected, and by a fairly comfortable margin…well, it says something. What does it say, exactly? He got most of his support from people who believed [a whole bunch of stuff that wasn’t true](http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04/Report10_21_04.pdf), a lot of which was the crap that the Bush administration told them. Thats how he got re-elected - deliberately engendering fear with a concerted campaign of wilful misinformation. Its nothing to be proud of. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252/60 "2005-01-24T12:14:42Z")
I’d like to congratulate **Xtisme** and \*\*Sam Stone \*\* for doing exactly what they complain so much about… going on gut reactions and repeating the same stuff over and over. \*\*We have a thread discussing if Bush is a “details” man, “hands on” and averse to “yes men”. \*\* In comes Sam and Xtisme criticizing people for calling Bush stupid… except that the discussion isn’t about Bush’s stupidity is it ? (though naturally it comes up during the process) So lets discuss this “novel” portrayal of Bush instead of just trying to label dopers as rabid Bush haters. Unless you naturally think that someone not being hands on is similar to being called stupid… which I don’t think anyone implied here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-a-detail-wonk/286252.md?page=4)