# "Bush is an idiot, but he was right about Saddam" - Interesting Salon article **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-an-idiot-but-he-was-right-about-saddam-interesting-salon-article/163432 "2003-03-22T22:01:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-an-idiot-but-he-was-right-about-saddam-interesting-salon-article/163432/1 "2003-03-22T22:01:38Z")
From [Salon Magazine - “Bush is an idiot, but he was right about Saddam”](http://www.salon.com/books/int/2003/03/22/berman/) (click on the ad for the full article) According to Berman “Islamism” has been given a huge pass by the mainly liberal inhabitants of the modern multi-cultural schools of academic historical and social criticism. Is there any merit to this perspective? [sub] > [@](#): > > During the last year and a half he has picked his way through the Islamic bookstores in his neighborhood, hunting down volumes by Sayyid Qutb, an Egyptian intellectual whose “In the Shade of the Qur’an” is the groundwork for Islamic fundamentalism. Berman finds Qutb’s analysis of the “hideous schizophrenia” of modern society “rich, nuanced, deep, soulful, and heartfelt.” Qutb’s work also convinced Berman that in Islamism we face a threat not unlike such 20th century totalitarian movements as fascism and communism. Berman feels similarly about Baathism, the nationalist ideology of Iraq’s ruling party. > > In fact, Berman believes that Islamism and Baathism emerged from the same great rift in liberal society, the First World War. “Terror and Liberalism,” Berman’s bracing new book, suggests that just as liberal-minded Europeans and Americans doubted the threats of Hitler and Stalin, enlightened Westerners today are in danger of missing the urgency of the violent ideologies coming out of the Muslim world. … > > A lot of people have misunderstood the nature of Islamism for a whole series of reasons. The biggest and most important of those reasons is Eurocentrism, which prevented people from looking at these movements at all. And the Eurocentrism has a flip side, a soft-headed multiculturalism in which movements in other parts of the world are regarded as hopelessly and wonderfully exotic and not to be judged or analyzed. In the last 20 years literally millions of people have been slaughtered by these movements and the wars they’ve begun. All of this has received a shockingly small amount of attention. > … > > My argument is that Islamism and a certain kind of pan-Arabism in the Arab and Muslim worlds are really further branches of the same impulse… > > …The desire is absolutely to rule the world. That’s not a great secret. A great philosopher of Islamist radicalism, Sayyid Qutb, who was hanged by [Egyptian president] Nasser in 1966, said that all plainly. The goal of Islamism is to recreate what Muhammad did in the seventh century, which was to found an Islamic state and bring that state to the entire world. The goal of Islamism is not to resolve some particular social problem here or there, it’s not to straighten out some border conflict between Israel and Palestine or between Pakistan and India or Chechnya and Russia, although those are genuine issues. The goal is absolutely grandiose and global. [/sub] ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-an-idiot-but-he-was-right-about-saddam-interesting-salon-article/163432/2 "2003-03-22T22:43:50Z")
A prime example of the slanted, biased journalism that has Salon 4 months late on paying their rent and on the brink of shutting down. ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-an-idiot-but-he-was-right-about-saddam-interesting-salon-article/163432/3 "2003-03-22T22:50:05Z")
Yeah I read the piece. I think it’s pretty misguided about the nature of the Islamic fundamentalist threat especially with respect to comparisons with Nazism and Communism. Those two ideologies had massive states at their disposal which could threaten to conquer the West directly. The Islamic militants have terrorists who can do a great deal of harm but will never conquer the West militarily. Furthermore fighting terrorists is very,very different from fighting centralized military machines run by states. In the latter the best strategy is to bigger military machine capable of destroying or deterring your enemy’s army. In the former you need the co-operation of governments in Muslim countries to provide you with intelligence and you need to worry about public opinion in hostile societies. Because the threat is very different the costs and benefits of particular strategies are very different. This is relevant to evaluating the current war. Berman just ignores all these practical issues. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-an-idiot-but-he-was-right-about-saddam-interesting-salon-article/163432/4 "2003-03-22T22:54:38Z")
Well, of course the liberals were responsible for Islamic fundamentalism. As well as AIDS, disco, Carrot Top, and the decline of Western Civ. ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-an-idiot-but-he-was-right-about-saddam-interesting-salon-article/163432/5 "2003-03-22T23:10:49Z")
He compares Nazism and Islamism only on a very deep level though - both are dictatorial, myth-based systems. Of course, they are completely different in the way they manifest themselves, but I think he’s got a point. I’m not sure about his argument that it all stems from the First World War though. I agree with much of what he says and it’s kind of how I’ve been thinking for a while. eg: > [@](#): > > Sept. 11 revealed many shocking things and the most shocking was that the Pentagon had no plan to defend the Pentagon. I think I see the war in Iraq in similar terms to him. All the left-wing groups are against the war. And yet I see this war as a war against fascism and therefore I support it (and I’m generally a left-wing person). I cannot fathom why people would be against the idea of kicking out an evil fascist dictator. I know people don’t like war but then sometimes fascism has to be fought. Fascist dictators always have to be “asked” to leave -they rarely leave of their own accord. I started a thread once wondering whether we should do this kind of thing more often, kicking out dictators and installing democracies. Since the most powerful country in the world happens to be America at the moment, maybe we should use that power as a force for good? History teaches us that empires don’t last forever so the day will come when America isn’t numero uno any more. So maybe America should use it’s 15 minutes to democratise as much of the world as possible. And I don’t mean install pro-US puppet democracies, just full democracies and after that they can have any orientation they want. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-an-idiot-but-he-was-right-about-saddam-interesting-salon-article/163432/6 "2003-03-22T23:19:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Since the most powerful country in the world happens to be America at the moment, maybe we should use that power as a force for good? That would be “good” as we see it? yes? > [@](#): > > History teaches us that empires don’t last forever so the day will come when America isn’t numero uno any more. So maybe America should use it’s 15 minutes to democratise as much of the world as possible. Just because other “empires” were short-lived, how do you extend that to indicate the US will fall to number 2? > [@](#): > > A prime example of the slanted, biased journalism that has Salon 4 months late on paying their rent and on the brink of shutting down. If slanted, biased journalism is the cause of Salon perhaps failing, how do other slanted, biased journals thrive? ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-an-idiot-but-he-was-right-about-saddam-interesting-salon-article/163432/7 "2003-03-22T23:36:08Z")
> [@](#): > > That would be “good” as we see it? yes? No, that would be _objectively_ good since democracy is undoubtedly a better system than dictatorship. I don’t believe it’s possible to seriously argue that dictatorship is better than democracy. > [@](#): > > Just because other “empires” were short-lived, how do you extend that to indicate the US will fall to number 2? Maybe it won’t, who knows? It’s just that history seems to indicate that nothing lasts forever. But, just in case the US does decline, then we ought to convert as much of the world as possible to democracy while we still can. Suppose the next great world power is an evil one. We want as many democracies in place as possible in order to counter it’s malign influence. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-an-idiot-but-he-was-right-about-saddam-interesting-salon-article/163432/8 "2003-03-22T23:39:56Z")
It’s an _interview_ with an author. That’s slanted, biased journalism? —Berman just ignores all these practical issues.— You read the article: did you actually read the parts where he talks about the sorts of things you are criticizing, such as the difference between states? He’s talking about the ideology from a sociological point of view, not necessary the battle strategy for how to confront it. And he doesn’t say “this is just like the Nazis.” He says, it is, and it isn’t, in certain ways. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-an-idiot-but-he-was-right-about-saddam-interesting-salon-article/163432/9 "2003-03-23T00:22:06Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s just that history seems to indicate that nothing lasts forever. But, just in case the US does decline, then we ought to convert as much of the world as possible to democracy while we still can. So, if the US(a “democracy”) fades into obscurity, it should make sure there are other democracies out there to keep alive a doomed system for as long as possible? Is that it? Why is the US version of a “democracy” doomed to failure? Perhaps all of the previous “empires” got it wrong and we got it right. And, of course, there are more systems out there than “dictatorships” and “democracies.” ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-an-idiot-but-he-was-right-about-saddam-interesting-salon-article/163432/10 "2003-03-23T00:56:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by samclem \* > \*\* > If slanted, biased journalism is the cause of Salon perhaps failing, how do other slanted, biased journals thrive? \*\* Not interested in talking about media bias today, the Gov would like to suggest that the main reason Salon is having money problems is that it gets the expenses of, say, an “Atlantic Monthly”, without the corresponding revenue. ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-an-idiot-but-he-was-right-about-saddam-interesting-salon-article/163432/11 "2003-03-23T01:08:25Z")
> [@](#): > > So, if the US(a “democracy”) fades into obscurity, it should make sure there are other democracies out there to keep alive a doomed system for as long as possible? Is that it? No. It wouldn’t be America’s _democracy_ that would fade, it would be America’s economic and military dominance that would fade. But America would still be a democracy. > [@](#): > > Why is the US version of a “democracy” doomed to failure? It isn’t. I’m just saying that American hegemony may fade one day (maybe when the oil runs out and we all revert to the stone age). But that doesn’t mean democracy would fade. Democracy is an idea, it is independant of the USA. Democracy doesn’t necessarily need the US (it did in the past and it may still do now but it won’t always be that way). > [@](#): > > And, of course, there are more systems out there than “dictatorships” and “democracies.” Not really. Far as I’m aware there’s only three - dictatorship, democracy and anarchy. We’re not ready for anarchy yet so that just leaves the two. ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-an-idiot-but-he-was-right-about-saddam-interesting-salon-article/163432/12 "2003-03-23T02:09:19Z")
“You read the article: did you actually read the parts where he talks about the sorts of things you are criticizing, such as the difference between states?” Yes but he never seems to understand the implications of this in terms of the cost and benefit of fighting a war. So what is his anlaysis about why a war would improve US national security? I don’t see much apart from the general talk about totalitarian evil. Also I think it’s a mistake to think of Saddam’s regime in terms of a radical ideological movement. That may have been true decades ago but now it just seems to another dictatorship which rules by pure force. There is very little ideological zeal among Iraqis as far as I can see which makes it very different from Nazi Germany or the USSR. Comparing those who don’t support this war with the appeasers of the 1930’s is a cliche, with very little basis in history. In the interview ,at least, Berman is doing little more than repeating this cliche along with some superficial historical analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-an-idiot-but-he-was-right-about-saddam-interesting-salon-article/163432/13 "2003-03-23T02:52:37Z")
> [@](#): > > . Far as I’m aware there’s only three - dictatorship, democracy and anarchy. So what happens when we try to apply democratic principles to a society that is based on a religious faith that excludes half of the population from the democratic process? I have heard that the Koran is very specific about the laws which restrict women. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-an-idiot-but-he-was-right-about-saddam-interesting-salon-article/163432/14 "2003-03-23T07:25:45Z")
Samclem: Putting “quotes” around straightforward terms like “democracy” does not “help” your “cause”. I can’t say “exactly” how it makes your posts “look” because this is Great Debates, not the “Pit.” ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-an-idiot-but-he-was-right-about-saddam-interesting-salon-article/163432/15 "2003-03-23T07:55:58Z")
> [@](#): > > I have heard that the Koran is very specific about the laws which restrict women. You have heard? Why don’t you post those quotes? I’m sure you will have a difficult time. The Quran was actually very liberating towards women, allowing them to own property and basically making them equals of men at that time in history. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-an-idiot-but-he-was-right-about-saddam-interesting-salon-article/163432/16 "2003-03-23T08:06:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ISiddiqui \* > \*\*You have heard? Why don’t you post those quotes? I’m sure you will have a difficult time. The Quran was actually very liberating towards women, allowing them to own property and basically making them equals of men at that time in history. \*\* Well, aparently the people who are in chage in most Islamic societies have fucked up pretty good then, because women are treated like shit in a lot of them. Oh, you’ll probably want specifics. Well, the Taliban in Afghanistan are probably the worst. But the Iranians and the Saudis also suck big wampum in their treatment of women. My guess is the Koran is chock full of stuff that can be used to justify treating women and other people like shit, just like the Bible. And the people who want to use it, will use. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-an-idiot-but-he-was-right-about-saddam-interesting-salon-article/163432/17 "2003-03-23T17:20:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Putting “quotes” around straightforward terms like “democracy” does not “help” your “cause”. I **Evil**. I only put the quotes around “democracy” because I figured pedants would show up and remind us that the US isn’t a democracy.