# Bush is right and Kennedy's wrong: liberal heads explode over Cape Wind project **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 9, 2006, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052 "2006-05-09T12:36:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052/61 "2006-05-09T16:30:31Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Romney opposes the wind farm. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Okay, I didn’t know that. Geez, **Elvis** didn’t read the OP either? Stay with me here, team! 😉 > [@tdn](#): > > Look at the Moon. Yes, that big lovely white thing in the night sky. The subject of song and sonnet and love and science. The thing that hits your eye like a big pizza pie. Now consider how huge and bloated it appears when it’s low in the sky. Now consider it twice as high and fifty times as wide. Don’t forget, though, that the moon is especially eye-catching because it appears as a brightly-illuminated solid disk (or half-disk or what have you, depending on phase). The wind turbines will be scattered dim lines on the horizon instead of a solid mass of big bright glowing thing, so I really doubt they will be anywhere near as noticeable as some people are worried about. > [@Duke of Rat](#): > > From what I’ve read, the wind turbines will appear about 1/2" high when viewed from shore. This is from the nearest point of land. Now I’ve seen the moon, and I honestly think it appears larger than that when on the horizon, at least in height. Nah, the approximate maximum height in angular measure of the turbines from sea-surface to blade-tip, as seen from the closest on-shore location, will be the arctangent of 417 feet divided by 5 miles, or about 0.9 degrees of arc. That isn’t quite twice as high as the 0.5 degrees of the moon’s disk, but it’s close. As I said to **tdn** , though, I really doubt their “noticeability” will be at all comparable to that of the moon’s disk. Now I’m kind of wondering what the optical effect would be when viewing the disk of the moon near the turbines. Will it “look” bigger than they do? After all, the full moon near the horizon does “look” bigger than nearby trees whose apparent height is quantitatively bigger—I think. Doesn’t it? Now I can’t get my spatial imagination to work at all on this anymore. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052/62 "2006-05-09T16:31:12Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Just for comparison’s sake: [Walter Cronkite](http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2003/08/29/cronkite_urges_full_review_of_wind_farm_proposal/) had been as fierce an opponent of it as anyone, until he confronted his own nimbyism and recanted. Thanks for the link. This must have happened pretty soon after the article i quoted above. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052/63 "2006-05-09T16:33:25Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > Can someone provide a link to mock-ups of these supposed monstrosities? Post #52? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052/64 "2006-05-09T16:33:53Z")
Cape Cod is supplied by one main powerplant 9in sandwich0. it burns low-sulphur oil. Having the wind power plant would do two main thins: - reduce the cost of electricity -reduce the pollution from burning oil I guess it hasn’t dawned on sen. kennedy that these might be worthy goals…of course, people might find the windmills a better alternative to oil-fired power generation. The sad thing is, the future will bring even MORE expensive oil, and meanwhile Ted (who is a millionaire), can’t think of why people would want this… ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052/65 "2006-05-09T16:35:31Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Pollute? Pollute what, your eyesight? Yep. The very same sight pollution that obviously caused you to skip right over the last part of post #44. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052/66 "2006-05-09T16:41:46Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > See, that’s it, that’s just fucking it when it comes to a lot of these supposed “environmentalists” thinking about where to place wind-farms on the east coast. Don’t the great plains have their own unique, rural character just like Nantucket sound? > > Oh right, poor folks live out there so why does it really even matter? Yes, the plains do have their own unique character. And the folks on the plains are no less prone to trot out silly reasons for opposing these structures than the folks in New England. From the same _NYT Magazine_ article i quoted above: > [@](#): > > In Rosalia, Kan., residents pleaded the potential damage to native tall grass and the possible harm to the nesting grounds of prairie chickens. In Maine, hikers hikers feared turbines would be within sight of a stretch of the Appalachian Trail. In rural Illinois, one farmer complained that it was “very annoying, seeing all this spinning around.” NIMBYism is something that transcends region or political affiliation. Hell, having lived in a few other countries, i can confidently state that NIMBYism a permanent feature of the English-speaking world. > [@threemae](#): > > Can someone provide a link to mock-ups of these supposed monstrosities? You can find some images and video on the [Cape Wind](http://www.capewind.org/) website. [This page](http://www.capewind.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=9&page=1) has visual simulations of what the turbines would allegdly look like from the Cape Cod area. Oh, hey everyone, **ralph124c** has arrived. About time. Hey **ralph** , weren’t your lies and misrepresentations in the other threads enough for you? And, after having had them exposed, aren’t you embarrassed to show your face on this issue? ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052/67 "2006-05-09T16:44:52Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Yes, the plains do have their own unique character. And the folks on the plains are no less prone to trot out silly reasons for opposing these structures than the folks in New England. At least we agree they are both silly reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052/68 "2006-05-09T16:46:27Z")
By the way, similar wind generators have been proposed off of Jones Beach. [It’s met with the reaction you’d expect,](http://www.savejonesbeach.org/) one senses a lot of NIMBYism there, too. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052/69 "2006-05-09T16:57:51Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Don’t forget, though, that the moon is especially eye-catching because it appears as a brightly-illuminated solid disk (or half-disk or what have you, depending on phase). The wind turbines will be scattered dim lines on the horizon instead of a solid mass of big bright glowing thing, so I really doubt they will be anywhere near as noticeable as some people are worried about. That’s a good point, and one that has not escaped me. On the other hand, they’ll be moving, and so will attract all the more attention. And if they’re painted white and light blue, maybe they’ll be pretty unobtrusive. I hope that’s the case. The thing is, we really won’t know until they’re built. We can look at artists’ renditions all day long, but that’s no substitute for reality. And once they’re built, it’s not lik we can just click on “undo” to take them away. Once we have them, we’re stuck with them. As I said before, I’m not 100% against the things, but I think it’s wise to consider the proposal very carefully before beginning. We shouldn’t just jump right in because some bozo in Terra Haute hates Ted Kennedy. > [@](#): > > Nah, the approximate maximum height in angular measure of the turbines from sea-surface to blade-tip, as seen from the closest on-shore location, will be the arctangent of 417 feet divided by 5 miles, or about 0.9 degrees of arc. That isn’t quite twice as high as the 0.5 degrees of the moon’s disk, but it’s close. Thanks for that math! My estimate, using entirely rectally derived figures, was pretty close. > [@](#): > > Now I’m kind of wondering what the optical effect would be when viewing the disk of the moon near the turbines. Will it “look” bigger than they do? I was wondering about this too. And will the turbines themselves look bigger because they are on the horizon? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052/70 "2006-05-09T16:58:34Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > So they are, which is why, far from giving Romney a “free pass” on the issue, I explicitly called him a “chowderhead” at the end of my OP, which I’m starting to get the feeling that neither you nor **Weirddave** actually read. 😕 I apologize; my eyes apparently skimmed past the final paragraph of your OP. And, in turn, I’ll forgive you for referring to me as “Weirddave.” 😃 Still, prior to my post, there’s 16 mentions of Kennedy in this thread, and only one of Romney. Now that I’ve searched the page for both terms, like I should have before I spoke up in the first place. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052/71 "2006-05-09T17:07:13Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > And, in turn, I’ll forgive you for referring to me as “Weirddave.” :eek: Horrors, I **did** misattribute your quote to him, didn’t I? Oh well, move over Mitt Romney, I’m a chowderhead too. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052/72 "2006-05-09T17:09:17Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Now I’m kind of wondering what the optical effect would be when viewing the disk of the moon near the turbines. Will it “look” bigger than they do? Seeing the moon through a turbine disk, with blades passing over it, might actually give the moon a strobe-light effect. Combine that with the moon’s color changes near the horizon and it might actually be kind of fun. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052/73 "2006-05-09T17:09:44Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > See, that’s it, that’s just fucking it when it comes to a lot of these supposed “environmentalists” thinking about where to place wind-farms on the east coast. Don’t the great plains have their own unique, rural character just like Nantucket sound? > > Oh right, poor folks live out there so why does it really even matter? No, my point is that _very few_ people live out there. Can you substantiate their being poorer? Admittedly, I don’t spend as much time there as I did earlier in my life, but my recollection of the one Great Plains town I was genuinely familiar with (Arkansas City, KS, if it matters) is one of a town without the extremes of wealth and poverty that characterize larger cities. At any rate, the reason the Vineyard is expensive is that people think it’s beautiful. The Plains have their austere beauty, too, but there’s a lot more Great Plains - hundreds of thousands of square miles of it - than there are people clamoring to spend time amidst its beauty. IOW, there seems to be a consensus of sorts that the beauty of the Plains is less scarce than that of the Vineyard. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052/74 "2006-05-09T17:11:06Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :eek: Horrors, I **did** misattribute your quote to him, didn’t I? Oh well, move over Mitt Romney, I’m a chowderhead too. No you’re not, but I’ll try to read more carefully if you try to proofread more carefully. Deal? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052/75 "2006-05-09T17:16:42Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > [This page](http://www.capewind.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=9&page=1) has visual simulations of what the turbines would allegdly look like from the Cape Cod area. Those are some great pictures, and no doubt they are honest. But they tend to misrepresent the scale and perspective of the real world. Try superimposing the Moon on those pictures. It would be about as big as the mouth on this smiley: :o (Of course that depends on your screen resolution and stuff.) **Kimstu** , since you’re pretty good at the math for this, how large would bikini bottoms look at 20 feet away? Let’s assume as a very rough guess they are 5 inches high and 18 inches wide. Hey math can be fun! ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052/76 "2006-05-09T17:19:22Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > Oh right, poor folks live out there so why does it really even matter? Why are you trying to turn this into some sort of class thing? It’s very obviously not, it’s about the blacks and the Jews! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052/77 "2006-05-09T17:20:25Z")
Maybe if they _painted_ the turbines, in vivid colors… ---
**Author:** ![Plynck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052/78 "2006-05-09T17:23:55Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Pollute? Pollute what, your eyesight? In general, it’s not an unreasonable argument. Issues involving visual aesthetics aren’t insignificant; they tend to determine economics in real estate. And: ask yourself if you be likely to visit the Grand Canyon if it was populated with wind turbines? (Not that they would be practical there, but bear with me.) Tourism drives a lot of the economy of the Cape. Nevertheless, I am in agreement with the OP. I once heard a speech by Robert Kennedy Jr. on NPR (National Press Club, if I recall correctly). He was vocal, eloquent and persuasive in his defense of the environment, and in his condemnation of the erosion of environmental compliance under the current administration. And then he was asked about the Cape Wind Farm, and I feel that he lessened his credibility by arguing against wind generation on the Cape. I understand that there may be other arguments (technical or environmental) against this proposal, but he offered an aesthetic argument. I think that the negligible reduction of visual aesthetics is more than offset by the production of clean energy. I am probably a bit biased here. I live in Lynn, a working class city on the coast of Massachusetts. I usually get down to the ocean on the weekends during the summer. I’ve asked myself whether my pleasure would be lessened by a wind farm off my coast, and I can honestly say that it wouldn’t bother me at all. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052/79 "2006-05-09T17:24:18Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Maybe if they _painted_ the turbines, in vivid colors… Yeah, neon orange! Woo hoo! 😃 Honestly, if they could design them to look like they fit in to a New England fishing village environment, I’d bet that a lot more people would be amenable to the idea. There’s probably some serious engineering problems in that, though. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052/80 "2006-05-09T17:43:38Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > At any rate, the reason the Vineyard is expensive is that people think it’s beautiful. And it certainly is beautiful, but a large part of the reason it attracts rich (and often famous, too) people is that there are other rich and famous people already there, to play golf with or just hang out with. People generally like to associate with their own kind, after all. The island’s relative isolation keeps them from being overbothered by commoners, and even go out in public fairly safely. Note that I didn’t mention race. MV, especially the Oak Bluffs area, has also been a vacation haven for the \*black \* upper crust of the Northeast for generations, even since the Jim Crow era, and it still is today. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-right-and-kennedys-wrong-liberal-heads-explode-over-cape-wind-project/356052.md?page=5)