# Bush is trying to duck one of the debates? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 8, 2004, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595 "2004-09-08T03:45:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/61 "2004-09-09T22:14:19Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I stand by what I said. A vote for Bush is a vote for ignorance. I believe I have studied the issues thoroughly. I do not agree that I am ignorant. I just place different priorities on different things. You may say the environment is important, for instance – I say that in general, it is less important that growing industrial interests. You may say it’s important to have international support before going into Iraq. I say it was crucial to go in at the time that we did, without waiting for international support. You may say it’s important to ensure that women have the right to choose abortion. I claim that abortion is a crime against human life. Is my support of Bush due to ignorance, or to the fact that Bush is, on many fronts, doing what I want done? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/62 "2004-09-09T22:37:35Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > This is something we’ve discussed before. Please see this article by Eugenie Scott, president of the National Center for Science Education. > > [Debates and the Globetrotters](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/debating/globetrotters.html) > > Here are some tips on debating creationists that I devised and posted the first time around: > > **approx. 1000 words that don’t really relate to fuck-all** Thanks for the debate tips but what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Your assertion that “Creationists routinely thrash Evolutionists in debate” is specious at best and ludicrous at worst. In fact, I’ll even concede that it’s probably a push. For every thrashing an Evolutionist takes in debate, I’ll show you and equal and opposite Creationist. > [@Liberal](#): > > First, Bush was not speaking extemporaneously when he made that gaffe; he was reading from copy. Second, people who do not hate him already are as likely to be disarmed by his clumsiness as offended. And third, people prefer what they perceive as a truthful man who is as tongue-tied as Lincoln over a liar who shakes a finger in their face. First – Oh perfect. Not only can the president not speak off the cuff, now he can’t even fucking read? Second – No, I don’t particularly like President Bush. But part of the reason I don’t is precisely because of the way he comes across in public speech. I don’t like him _in spite_ of it. Frankly, I find it difficult to believe how many people do. I’d say it’s more like the people who agree with his policies either tolerate his apparent stupidity, or just shine it on. Call me overly critical if you must, but I’d prefer my president not to sound like an idiot when he’s addressing me. Third – I don’t perceive Bush as particularly truthful, in light of his record of misspoken “facts”, unclaimed mistakes, decisions made on questionable info … oh who am I kidding … the man fucking lied to the nation, right in his State of the Union address. How can anyone say he comes across as truthful? I will give you the republican battle cry: “He’s resolute in his decisions.” But if his decisions only serve to fuck up our country, I don’t care how damn resolute he is. One can be resolute and still be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/63 "2004-09-09T23:20:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Is my support of Bush due to ignorance, or to the fact that Bush is, on many fronts, doing what I want done? No difference. If you want the things he’s currently doing, done, you’re ignorant. If you don’t want those things done, and you’re supporting him (maybe you don’t know his agenda), then you’re ignorant. > [@](#): > > I believe I have studied the issues thoroughly. I do not agree that I am ignorant. So you know his fine print, then you’re simply ignorant on a macro level. > [@](#): > > I just place different priorities on different things. You may say the environment is important, for instance – I say that in general, it is less important that growing industrial interests. > > You may say it’s important to have international support before going into Iraq. I say it was crucial to go in at the time that we did, without waiting for international support. > > You may say it’s important to ensure that women have the right to choose abortion. I claim that abortion is a crime against human life. Naturally we’re free to place our priorities where we chose, although that has little to do with a person being ignorant or not. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/64 "2004-09-10T01:14:21Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > No difference. If you want the things he’s currently doing, done, you’re ignorant. If you don’t want those things done, and you’re supporting him (maybe you don’t know his agenda), then you’re ignorant. > . > . > . > Naturally we’re free to place our priorities where we chose, although that has little to do with a person being ignorant or not. So if I want the things he’s currently doing, I’m ignorant. Specifically, if I want Roe v. Wade repealed, I’m ignorant? If I want the tax cuts made permanant, I’m ignorant? If I want same-sex marriage forbidden by the states, I’m ignorant? Yes or no, please, to each of those. I believe I can make cogent cases for each of those propositions. If you dismiss those out of hand, I think we can safely understand what your accusation of ignorance really means: “You don’t agree with me.” - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/65 "2004-09-10T03:34:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Specifically, if I want Roe v. Wade repealed, I’m ignorant? Ignorant? No. An authoritarian asshole who wants to impose his (probably) religious views on others? Yes. > [@Bricker](#): > > If I want same-sex marriage forbidden by the states, I’m ignorant? Oh hell yes. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/66 "2004-09-10T10:50:42Z")
> [@Jack Batty](#): > > Thanks for the debate tips but what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Your assertion that “Creationists routinely thrash Evolutionists in debate” is specious at best and ludicrous at worst. I led you to the water. Stick out your damn tongue. From Dr. Scott: > [@](#): > > Most of the time a well-meaning evolutionist accepts a debate challenge (usually “to defend good science” or for some other worthy goal), reads a bunch of creationist literature, makes up a lecture explaining Darwinian gradualism, and can’t figure out why at the end of the debate so many individuals are clustered around his opponent, congratulating him on having done such a good job of routing evolution – and why his friends are too busy to go out for a beer after the debate. > > The worse situation is that he and his friends think he did just fine, and remain ignorant of the fact that the majority of the audience left the auditorium convinced that evolution was “a theory in crisis.” She even advises that the best thing to do is avoid the debate altogether. Read the fucking article. > [@](#): > > I will give you the republican battle cry: “He’s resolute in his decisions.” But if his decisions only serve to fuck up our country, I don’t care how damn resolute he is. One can be resolute and still be wrong. It is remarkable how stupid smart people can be. Were you under the mistaken impression that voters have to take IQ tests? Voters are weebles, and weebles like strong leaders. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/67 "2004-09-10T16:28:35Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Oh hell yes. Ignorant. Not simply exercising an opinion upon which reasonable people may disagree. Simply ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/68 "2004-09-10T17:01:44Z")
Alright here are your yes and no answers in which I’ll elaborate later on, most likely when we get to the semantical nitpicking phase of our discussion. > [@Bricker](#): > > So if I want the things he’s currently doing, I’m ignorant. > > Specifically, if I want Roe v. Wade repealed, I’m ignorant? Yes. > [@](#): > > If I want the tax cuts made permanant, I’m ignorant? Yes > [@](#): > > If I want same-sex marriage forbidden by the states, I’m ignorant? Yes. Oh look the trifecta. > [@](#): > > I believe I can make cogent cases for each of those propositions. If you dismiss those out of hand, I think we can safely understand what your accusation of ignorance really means: “You don’t agree with me.” I find the things you believe in to be counterproductive to the forward direction of this nation. Whether you’re ignorant, or perhaps some selfish jerk, is yet to be determined. I’ll throw out the first salvo for the semantic hairsplitting that is soon to follow as well. btw **Ignorant:** Unaware or uninformed I say you’re uninformed about the true impact of all these stupid policies you believe in. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/69 "2004-09-10T17:14:01Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I find the things you believe in to be counterproductive to the forward direction of this nation. Due to the nature of entropy and time’s arrow, every direction is forward. It is a fundamental mistake (and in fact a common mistake of fundamentalists) to see only your own direction as the forward one. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/70 "2004-09-10T17:15:50Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I find the things you believe in to be counterproductive to the forward direction of this nation. Whether you’re ignorant, or perhaps some selfish jerk, is yet to be determined. > . > . > … > btw **Ignorant:** Unaware or uninformed > > I say you’re uninformed about the true impact of all these stupid policies you believe in. Let’s say, _arguendo_, that I am in fact informed and clear about the true impact of these policies. I asusme you’d then characterize me as selfish, rather than ignorant? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/71 "2004-09-10T17:27:30Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Due to the nature of entropy and time’s arrow, every direction is forward. It is a fundamental mistake (and in fact a common mistake of fundamentalists) to see only your own direction as the forward one. Huh? What sort of convoluted logic is that? So we should go exterminate all black people? We would be moving forward? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/72 "2004-09-10T17:35:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Let’s say, _arguendo_, that I am in fact informed and clear about the true impact of these policies. > > I asusme you’d then characterize me as selfish, rather than ignorant? Yeah I guess, however I’d question how informed you really were. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/73 "2004-09-10T18:38:33Z")
Well, to take one example, and not to sound indelicate, but I am in the top 1% of wage-earners in the country. My support for Bush’s tax policies certainly is both informed and consistent with my own financial interest. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/74 "2004-09-10T18:54:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, to take one example, and not to sound indelicate, but I am in the top 1% of wage-earners in the country. My support for Bush’s tax policies certainly is both informed and consistent with my own financial interest. Well, consider that his tax cut has more ramifications then simply saving you a few bucks, perhaps you’re not saving as much as you think. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/75 "2004-09-10T19:09:16Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Well, consider that his tax cut has more ramifications then simply saving you a few bucks, perhaps you’re not saving as much as you think. Is this a point on which reasonable people may disagree, or is it absolutely, rock-solid, you’re-an-idiot-if-you-don’t-agree established that the Bush tax cuts has ramifications that will cost me money instead of saving me money? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/76 "2004-09-10T19:32:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Is this a point on which reasonable people may disagree, or is it absolutely, rock-solid, you’re-an-idiot-if-you-don’t-agree established that the Bush tax cuts has ramifications that will cost me money instead of saving me money? I suppose it’s a point that determines whether you’re selfish or ignorant. I fail to see any positive things coming from this tax cut except a few wealthy people saving a couple of bucks. On the other hand, the negative aspects are very real for millions of people, and the nation as a whole would be better off if they were repealed. You trying to string me along with some questioning and then pounce on me Matlock style or something? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/77 "2004-09-10T19:48:36Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Huh? What sort of convoluted logic is that? Physics. Thing called “thermodynamics”. > [@](#): > > So we should go exterminate all black people? Um, no. > [@](#): > > We would be moving forward? Time-wise, you can move no other way. > [@](#): > > 😕 > **[Arrow of time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_of_time)** > > The arrow of time, also called time's arrow, is the concept positing the "one-way direction" or "asymmetry" of time. It was developed in 1927 by the British astrophysicist Arthur Eddington, and is an unsolved general physics question. This direction, according to Eddington, could be determined by studying the organization of atoms, molecules, and bodies, and might be drawn upon a four-dimensional relativistic map of the world ("a solid block of paper"). > Physical processes at the microscopic leve... ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/78 "2004-09-10T19:56:51Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I fail to see any positive things coming from this tax cut except a few wealthy people saving a couple of bucks. Is your economic knowledge so vast and your analytical skills so honed that it is impossible to believe that there ARE positives you just aren’t seeing? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/79 "2004-09-10T20:09:43Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I suppose it’s a point that determines whether you’re selfish or ignorant. I fail to see any positive things coming from this tax cut except a few wealthy people saving a couple of bucks. On the other hand, the negative aspects are very real for millions of people, and the nation as a whole would be better off if they were repealed. OK, let’s accept your analysis for a moment. The benefit for some people is that they save a few bucks. That includes me: I benefit from the Bush tax cuts. And for the moment, I accept your argument that while I save a few bucks, millions of people suffer negative effects. So now we seem to agree that I understand, fully, the effects of the Bush tax cuts. **And I’m still in favor of them**. I made my own wealth. I started from nothing. Now I want to increase my wealth, and I’m not interested in being forced to subsidize others if I can possibly avoid it. Am I still ignorant? - Rick ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/80 "2004-09-10T20:10:24Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Physics. Thing called “thermodynamics”. > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow\_of\_time](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_of_time) Cut to the chase, do you have some type of point? Maybe chronologically all things move forward, but it’s certainly possible for us humans to take a big 'ol fucking step back. Anymore of this nonsense and I’ll have to break out the bong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595.md?page=5)