# Bush is trying to duck one of the debates? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 8, 2004, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595 "2004-09-08T03:45:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/81 "2004-09-10T20:16:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Is this a point on which reasonable people may disagree, or is it absolutely, rock-solid, you’re-an-idiot-if-you-don’t-agree established that the Bush tax cuts has ramifications that will cost me money instead of saving me money? You really think it even possible, much less likely, that there are no ramifications to the Bush tax cuts other than saving you some cash? Come on now. Here’s a few of the most frickin’ obvious, Mr. Proudly and Self-Proclaimedly “Informed”: Reduced government revenue with no offsetting reduction in expenditures, nor with the real possibility of doing so. Increased deficits. Increased borrowing. Increased debt service required in future years (unless you don’t think default would have any "ramifications). Increased taxation required to pay the debt service. Reduced private capital availability for commercial investment, it being drawn toward government securities instead. Slowed economic performance as a result of both higher future taxation and lower investment. Increased inflationary pressures, equaling loss of value of your precious portfolio. It might itself be a target of a future government forced to raise taxes to avoid default. Your own children and grandchildren get to pay for your moment of pleasure. You could have tried the path of \*enlightened \* self-interest; surely you’ve heard of it - the concept that if the situation is better for everyone it will be better, and more stably and assuredly, for you too. But apparently we can put you in the “Heehee, Bush cut my taxes, so I’m voting for him!” category, along with all the other selfish and, yes, ignorant yahoos whose principles were on the market for a one-time payment of $300, to be paid by their children. > [@World Eater](#): > > You trying to string me along with some questioning and then pounce on me Matlock style or something? He’s a lawyer. He does that shit for _fun_. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/82 "2004-09-10T20:20:53Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Is your economic knowledge so vast and your analytical skills so honed that it is impossible to believe that there ARE positives you just aren’t seeing? Ok, what are the other positives I’m missing? ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/83 "2004-09-10T20:23:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So now we seem to agree that I understand, fully, the effects of the Bush tax cuts. > > **And I’m still in favor of them**. > > I made my own wealth. I started from nothing. Now I want to increase my wealth, and I’m not interested in being forced to subsidize others if I can possibly avoid it. > > Am I still ignorant? It makes you Republican. Assuming you’re not speaking hypothetically, but of your own experience, I gotta wonder if you _really_ made your own wealth. No public school for you? No loans? No grants? No assistance of any kind? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/84 "2004-09-10T20:43:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK, let’s accept your analysis for a moment. The benefit for some people is that they save a few bucks. That includes me: I benefit from the Bush tax cuts. And for the moment, I accept your argument that while I save a few bucks, millions of people suffer negative effects. The question of course being, _are you really benefiting?_ As **Elvis** has very nicely pointed out, this may not be the case. > [@](#): > > So now we seem to agree that I understand, fully, the effects of the Bush tax cuts. > > **And I’m still in favor of them**. Ok so we can remove all doubt that you’re selfish. For some reason you seem proud of this. > [@](#): > > I made my own wealth. I started from nothing. Now I want to increase my wealth, and I’m not interested in being forced to subsidize others if I can possibly avoid it. > > Am I still ignorant? Yes, Rick, you’re ignorant of the world around you, and the people in it. Probably something to do with your self absorbed selfishness, it’s all a rich tapestry. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/85 "2004-09-10T20:45:43Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > It makes you Republican. > > Assuming you’re not speaking hypothetically, but of your own experience, I gotta wonder if you _really_ made your own wealth. No public school for you? No loans? No grants? No assistance of any kind? Public school through high school. No loans, no grants for college. I worked several jobs simultaneously to pay for school. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/86 "2004-09-10T21:01:57Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > Assuming you’re not speaking hypothetically, but of your own experience, I gotta wonder if you really made your own wealth. No public school for you? No loans? No grants? No assistance of any kind? That’s like the master asking his ungrateful and uppity slave, “Just where do you think you would be if I had not provided you cornmeal, creek water, and a shed to sleep in?”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/87 "2004-09-10T21:02:13Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Yes, Rick, you’re ignorant of the world around you, and the people in it. Probably something to do with your self absorbed selfishness, it’s all a rich tapestry. So if only I knew something about the world around me and the people in it, I would sympathize with them and would feel differently? I was pretty sure we’d get to this point. “Ignorant=doesn’t agree with me.” I could equally well characterize you as a thief. You’re willing to reach into my pocket and take my money, money _I_ earned, and use it to help out malcontents and defectives, habitual failures that can’t manage to earn what I earn. But I would never do that, because I recognize that you and I simply disagree on the value of redistributing wealth in this way, and that your motives are good ones, even if - in my view - inefficient. You do not extend me the same courtesy. You assume that everyone who sees what you do must interpet everything as you do, and failure to do this is ignorance. “Selfish” – this is actually better, because it’s simply an accusation that my approach is motivated by self-interest rather than magnaniminity. This is a defensible position to take - in a sense, my approach _is_ selfish. But it’s not borne of ignorance. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/88 "2004-09-10T21:29:45Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Ok, what are the other positives I’m missing? I’m not arguing for or against any of these policies. I’m saying that your attitude is one of “I’m right and you’re a moron.” with respect to a VERY complex issue. That’s a rather conceited position to take, when you are talking to informed and intelligent people who happen to disagree with you. I think Bricker is wrong on the whole gay marriage thing. I haven’t seen a decent argument against it, but I can also understand that it’s very much a matter of opinion. Our disagreement doesn’t automatically make him a jerk or a bigot or a fool, even if he’s clearly wrong. 😉 That’s all I’m trying to say, and I apologize in advance if I do not respond back to this thread, I am going on vacation tomorrow and might not get a chance to reply before I go. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/89 "2004-09-10T21:34:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So if only I knew something about the world around me and the people in it, I would sympathize with them and would feel differently? > > I was pretty sure we’d get to this point. “Ignorant=doesn’t agree with me.” I knew we would too, as if me mislabeling you ignorant when you’re actually selfish really changes anything. But I know the little game here to prove that you’re not ignorant by some textbook definition. > [@](#): > > I could equally well characterize you as a thief. You’re willing to reach into my pocket and take my money, money _I_ earned, and use it to help out malcontents and defectives, habitual failures that can’t manage to earn what I earn. Hey homeboy, I make a wage (not a bad one for now either) and pay taxes as well, do keep that in mind. So don’t give me this thief garbage, because if you want to say I’m robbing your money, I’ll come right back at you robbing my quality of life. > [@](#): > > But I would never do that, because I recognize that you and I simply disagree on the value of redistributing wealth in this way, and that your motives are good ones, even if - in my view - inefficient. Well I’d say “good” and “inefficient” in the same sentence is a bit oxymoronic, but then we’d go off on yet another definitional tangent, and I don’t want that. > [@](#): > > You do not extend me the same courtesy. Not when you say things such as _"You’re willing to reach into my pocket and take my money, money I earned, **and use it to help out malcontents and defectives, habitual failures that can’t manage to earn what I earn."** _ (bolding mine) Sheeeesh, you must be a real lady-killer. > [@](#): > > You assume that everyone who sees what you do must interpet everything as you do, and failure to do this is ignorance. I do? Where did you get that from? [sub]actually I don’t expect people to always interpret things the same[/sub] > [@](#): > > “Selfish” – this is actually better, because it’s simply an accusation that my approach is motivated by self-interest rather than magnaniminity. This is a defensible position to take - in a sense, my approach _is_ selfish. > > But it’s not borne of ignorance. > > - Rick Hey man, if you want to look in the mirror and say that over and over to yourself, by my guest. It still doesn’t change the fact the _many_ people commonly interpret behavior like yours as ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/90 "2004-09-10T21:48:55Z")
I have a reply to your comments **Cheesesteak** , but I’ll go ahead and wish you a happy and safe vacation before I spend 20 minutes typing a rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/91 "2004-09-10T21:58:15Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > That’s like the master asking his ungrateful and uppity slave, “Just where do you think you would be if I had not provided you cornmeal, creek water, and a shed to sleep in?”. > [@](#): > > Due to the nature of entropy and time’s arrow, every direction is forward. It is a fundamental mistake (and in fact a common mistake of fundamentalists) to see only your own direction as the forward one. I’ve often wanted to vote for a Libertarian candidate; but they always seem to nominate wackos. I’ve puzzled over why they do that. I’ve finally come to the conclusion that libertarian and nutjob are basically the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/92 "2004-09-10T22:59:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I could equally well characterize you as a thief. You’re willing to reach into my pocket and take my money, money _I_ earned, and use it to help out malcontents and defectives, habitual failures that can’t manage to earn what I earn. Before I make any attempt to address this statement, I want to ask what you meant, exactly, by “_malcontents and defectives, habitual failures_”…? LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/93 "2004-09-10T23:56:52Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > I’ve often wanted to vote for a Libertarian candidate; but they always seem to nominate wackos. I’ve puzzled over why they do that. I’ve finally come to the conclusion that libertarian and nutjob are basically the same thing. To be fair, some Libertarians are quite sane, quite logical, and quite entertaining – Penn & Teller (the magic team) being two of my own faves. Others, however, are pure mouth-frothing idiots, such as … oh, just **Liberal** ly pick a resident SDMB libertarian or two. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/94 "2004-09-11T02:31:46Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > Before I make any attempt to address this statement, I want to ask what you meant, exactly, by “_malcontents and defectives, habitual failures_”…? > > LilShieste Not sure, since I clearly disclaimed any serious intent in this sentence in the very next paragraph. So if you’re rarin’ to take me down over it, I’ll save you the trouble and repeat, AGAIN, that I would never actually make such a claim. OK? ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/95 "2004-09-11T03:51:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not sure, since I clearly disclaimed any serious intent in this sentence in the very next paragraph. Hmm… what I should have said was: > [@](#): > > **LilShieste** should have posted: > _Before I make any attempt to address this statement… I should finish your post._ :smack: My apologies, **Bricker**. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595/96 "2004-09-11T14:14:24Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > I’ve often wanted to vote for a Libertarian candidate; but they always seem to nominate wackos. I’ve puzzled over why they do that. I’ve finally come to the conclusion that libertarian and nutjob are basically the same thing. Actually, it is your political enemies who feel threatened by the notion of peaceful honest people being free to pursue their own happiness in their own way. That’s why you must fight so hard for “rights” that fall from the table like crumbs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-is-trying-to-duck-one-of-the-debates/263595.md?page=4)